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Ukraine Invasion: Part 22

1000 replies

MagicFox · 23/04/2022 10:06

Here we are again

OP posts:
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34
RedToothBrush · 26/04/2022 10:50

Phillips P OBrien AT PhillipsPObrien
Reopening this because Ukrainian claims of losses point to a significant increase in combat activity in the fighting (assuming mostly Donbas) which a major increase in destroyed Russian equipment.

Most recent update from Ukrainan armed forces has a major acceleration in Russian tank losses. In only two days claimed Russian losses in tanks has risen by 45 (873 to 918) and APCs has stayed steady at 70 (2238-2308).

Before two days ago the Ukrainians were claiming that the Russians are losing tanks at a rate of 14.5 a day, which has gone up by 50% the last two (to 22.5). Worth watching to see if the rate stays high as it gives an indication that the fight is increasing.

Also indicates that the attritional phase might not last that long.

Phillips references a thread about the reinforcement and redeployment rate in the Donbas from 2 days ago as part of this. His argument was that the rate at which they were reploying at a slow pace was too slow to get an increase in build up to be able to make significant breakthroughs.

He is now suggesting that the rate of attrition may be higher than reinforcement based off Ukrainian numbers.

It would explain the Russian panic stations and talk of war.

Also remember they cant get any new troops until the new conscripts kick in (June) and the contract soliders can leave freely having completed their contract up to the point that war is declared.

DFOD · 26/04/2022 10:52

This reply has been withdrawn

Duplicate post

RedToothBrush · 26/04/2022 10:55

DFOD · 26/04/2022 10:49

The CEPA insights are overall positive I think in this reality.

It shows deep tensions and divisions within the Russian system - and these are likely becoming more and more polarised and entrenched as the external pressure escalates from all angles.

In fighting, power grabs and resistance can only be a good thing in terms of destabilising and fragmenting any existing war strategy or political, military, intelligence regime, as any time, energy or focus diverted away from the front line is an opportunity for Ukraine to push on.

This.

Its about as close to an admission that they are losing that you will get.

OwlsDance · 26/04/2022 11:05

Yet on Russian news they are saying that the West is scared that Russia is winning 😂 mostly thanks to BoJo's comment in India.

ScrollingLeaves · 26/04/2022 11:07

RedToothBrush,
from that article it almost seems as though Putin, in deciding to reduce their aims to the south and east, was being more measured and willing to compromise in the face of reality than the army chiefs.

Do other people get that impression? If so, what would be the ramifications?

Ijsbear · 26/04/2022 11:12

If offical war is declared I think there would be a number of things they could do in wartime that they can't in peacetime? For instance, instead of the conscripts going home when their time is up, in an official war situation then they can be kept on. I'm sure there are a plethora of other things they can do too, I'm guessing along the lines of taking over important production facilities.

OwlsDance · 26/04/2022 11:26

I've read somewhere that declaring war is something that the top generals have been asking for a while as they need more men. Putin is very reluctant to do it as

  1. He publicly said he's not going to, so he'll be going back on his word, and it might cause an uprising
  2. He's scared that if Ukraine or anyone else actually retaliated and attacks Russia, it will be very exposed.

A lot of people who have the funds fled Russia for this exact reason. They don't believe what Putin said. There is a significant number though who don't support him, but don't have money to leave. Even those who do support the war, are happy to do this from the comfort of their homes. Once they are the ones that have to put their necks into the firing line, I think a lot would change their minds.

Although obviously they are preparing for it, claiming Ukraine is attacking close to the border villages in Russia.

RedToothBrush · 26/04/2022 11:26

ScrollingLeaves · 26/04/2022 11:07

RedToothBrush,
from that article it almost seems as though Putin, in deciding to reduce their aims to the south and east, was being more measured and willing to compromise in the face of reality than the army chiefs.

Do other people get that impression? If so, what would be the ramifications?

I don't necessarily agree.

Russia’s cultural leaning is towards having a hard man as leader.

If you have a leader who is looking weak then your rivals may wish to appear tougher to gain power. Once they gain power they are not fully established and will need to consolidate their power. Doing this against the backdrop of war?

Is that realistic?

The rhetoric is possibly more about willy waving about 'im tougher than Putin, i'd do better' rather than a substantive ability or willingness to go further when in office.

For Putin to go there has to be a wholesale shift within the structure of Russian heirachy. So it may reflect more of a vying for position rather than a determination to take Ukraine.

Reality would kick in because the public are not necessarily loyal to a new leader. Any decline in living standards may not be levelled at the regional governor anymore but at the president himself.

Putin can do things than a new leader cant precisely because of this cult of personality.

The other thing about internal criticism over putin that strikes me is how much rumours over his health might be sticking within elite circles too.

Think a tory leadership election but on steriods and where actually knifing your rival physically rather than metaphorically is the order of the day. We have that to go through and consider. It may develop into an every man for himself mentality.

Ijsbear · 26/04/2022 11:27

@OwlsDance from the perspective of someone who understands both languages well and is perhaps able to assume a neutral assessment, which side do you think is more accurate in their war analysis?

A lot of the people I read are pro-ukraine and I rather would like to find a detached, balanced but compassionate perspective.

ScrollingLeaves · 26/04/2022 11:28

From that same article RTB posted earlier
cepa.org/vicious-blame-game-erupts-among-putins-security-forces/

Russia’s military believes that limiting the war’s initial goals is a serious error. They now argue that Russia is not fighting Ukraine, but NATO. Senior officers have therefore concluded that the Western alliance is fighting all out (though the supply of increasingly sophisticated weaponry) while its own forces operate under peacetime constraints like a bar on airstrikes against some key areas of Ukraine’s infrastructure (My bold)

What seems worrying is that all that mayhem, murder and rape, bombing hospitals and homes, and infrastructure like the railway station, and parts of railways, the tv tower, water turned off etc was deemed to be operating under “peacetime constraints”.

If so, what would it look like without “ peacetime constraints”?

OwlsDance · 26/04/2022 11:29

Ijsbear · 26/04/2022 11:12

If offical war is declared I think there would be a number of things they could do in wartime that they can't in peacetime? For instance, instead of the conscripts going home when their time is up, in an official war situation then they can be kept on. I'm sure there are a plethora of other things they can do too, I'm guessing along the lines of taking over important production facilities.

This has been one of the issues so far - those who have seen the bloodbath near Kyiv and elsewhere in Ukraine, are refusing to go back. Because they can. They just break their contract, so they won't get paid what they've promised, but at least they get to stay alive. If war is declared, they can't do that, it will be classed as deserting, which is a punishable offence.

RedToothBrush · 26/04/2022 11:48

ScrollingLeaves · 26/04/2022 11:28

From that same article RTB posted earlier
cepa.org/vicious-blame-game-erupts-among-putins-security-forces/

Russia’s military believes that limiting the war’s initial goals is a serious error. They now argue that Russia is not fighting Ukraine, but NATO. Senior officers have therefore concluded that the Western alliance is fighting all out (though the supply of increasingly sophisticated weaponry) while its own forces operate under peacetime constraints like a bar on airstrikes against some key areas of Ukraine’s infrastructure (My bold)

What seems worrying is that all that mayhem, murder and rape, bombing hospitals and homes, and infrastructure like the railway station, and parts of railways, the tv tower, water turned off etc was deemed to be operating under “peacetime constraints”.

If so, what would it look like without “ peacetime constraints”?

Its conscriotion and holding onto contract soliders thats the biggest peacetime constraint.

You also cant fully mobilise your economy to 100% production for the war effort.

So might be nothing whatsoever to do with what they are doing in Ukraine and everything to do with what they are doing on Russian soil.

RedToothBrush · 26/04/2022 11:52

Samuel Ramani AT Samuelramani2
British intelligence is projecting a 20% decline in Ukraine’s grain harvest compared to 2021

Bad news for global food security

RedToothBrush · 26/04/2022 11:56

Thought for consideration:

What does nuking the bread basket of the middle east do for Russian international relations?

Igotjelly · 26/04/2022 11:57

Interesting. Bloomberg reporting that the two antennas that have been blown up in Transnistria carry Russian broadcasts. Wonder what that says for who has carried out these attacks?

BringBackCoffeeCreams · 26/04/2022 12:07

Bloody hell I hope it's the usual Daily Mail bollocks but they're reporting that the Russians are handing out booby trapped 'humanitarian aid'.

Natsku · 26/04/2022 12:15

Wouldn't put it past them

minsmum · 26/04/2022 12:16

Just heard on the radio where they are saying a city has fallen to the Russians, I think they said Kremmina, sorry I am supposed to be working

TargusEasting · 26/04/2022 12:23

RedToothBrush · 26/04/2022 11:56

Thought for consideration:

What does nuking the bread basket of the middle east do for Russian international relations?

Toast?

India. But I am a bit uncomfortable with the principle that India holds a notional surplus capacity, particularly when the is inflation on the continent.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/indias-foreign-minister-says-ready-to-step-up-on-global-issues/ar-AAWAvhs

www.thegrocer.co.uk/sourcing/wheat-focus-turns-to-india-and-us-as-ukraine-war-cuts-supply/666772.article

TargusEasting · 26/04/2022 12:26

Starvation, not inflation.

MagicFox · 26/04/2022 12:28

Soberingly important article from the FT about the dangers of isolating Russia: www.ft.com/content/5e357d9e-6717-4091-a7db-fe43bdbdab1d

Excerpt:

There are myriad moral reasons why Russia should be ghettoised as a geopolitical Chernobyl. But treating Russia as a collective Putin will be a strategic blunder. Here is why.

First, this notion will primarily benefit the Russian leader. It unwittingly gives him the legitimacy to speak on behalf of the Russian people. Worse, it justifies his twisted narrative that the only Russia the west can tolerate is a weak or defeated one. If Russia is a geopolitical Chernobyl, the only reasonable strategy for any freedom-loving Russian is to bolt for the exits.

Second, an isolation strategy is probably self-defeating because it closes off interest in what is happening in Russia. It predicts that Russians’ failure to speak against the war means that the country will never change its attitude towards it. It will miss the fact that more than a few Russians support the war not because they support the regime but because they irrationally hope that the war will change the regime.

Opposition-minded people hope that a defeat for the Russian army in Ukraine will bring Putin down. Many of his supporters relish the destruction of the despised, Putin-enabled offshore elite. In the words of a famous rock singer, after the west seized the property of the oligarchs, Russians finally became “equal like in 1917”.

Third, to bet on a world without Russia is ultimately futile because the non-western world, which may not favour the Kremlin’s war, is hardly eager to isolate Russia. Many see the current barbarism as disgusting but not exceptional. They practice value-free realism. Many of the states that US president Joe Biden invited to his Summit for Democracy have not placed sanctions on Russia.

Russia’s military offensive in the Donbas only intensifies the clash between those who view the country as morally irreparable and those who see it as an unavoidable reality in global politics. The offensive will force European public opinion to choose between “the peace party” (those who insist that the west’s priority should be to stop hostilities as soon as possible, even at the cost of major concessions from Ukraine) and “the justice party” (those who insist the priority should be to expel Russian troops from Ukrainian territory even at the cost of prolonged war).

Peace and justice do not rhyme in European history. Whether you call the invasion of Ukraine Putin’s war or Russians’ war is not a matter of taste but a strategic choice. It signals the west’s expectations about its relations with post-Putin Russia, whenever that arrives.

OP posts:
OwlsDance · 26/04/2022 12:37

Ijsbear · 26/04/2022 11:27

@OwlsDance from the perspective of someone who understands both languages well and is perhaps able to assume a neutral assessment, which side do you think is more accurate in their war analysis?

A lot of the people I read are pro-ukraine and I rather would like to find a detached, balanced but compassionate perspective.

I'd love to do that but that's based on an assumption that I can access accurate information from both sides, and I definitely can't do that for Russia because they are blatantly lying. There's zero negative news/news about losses on state sources.

Consider Bucha. Russia outright said they didn't do any of the atrocities they were blamed for. Then information came out about Ukraine potentially not treating the POWs fairly, and I can't remember if it was Zelensky or Podolyak, but one of them said that if that happened it will be investigated, but it's also very difficult for Ukraine defenders to not get carried away when their friends and families were raped and murdered. So while they provided some justification for it, they also said we'll look into it. But Russia just denied it outright, without any investigation or analysis.

Funnily enough, a lot of Russians do know that they are not told full truth. But over there it's completely acceptable, they think that this is what governments do, because they really don't know any different.

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 26/04/2022 12:40

I'm trying to understand the ways in which this war might escalate? Russia could officially declare war and basically do more of the same only they have now secured their troops and have unrestricted access to Russian facilities. But...I wonder if they know they would still fail in their aims. That in fact their position hasn't been strengthened and they still aren't strong enough, especially whilst NATO continues to supply Ukraine. This then makes me think they will inevitably revert to chemical or nuclear tactics in Ukraine. Does that mean world war 3 then begins? I read somewhere that we will only know when world war 3 begins retrospectively.

I don't want to be a pessimist but I'm feeling more rattled since the weekend than I have done in a while.

OwlsDance · 26/04/2022 12:42

Igotjelly · 26/04/2022 11:57

Interesting. Bloomberg reporting that the two antennas that have been blown up in Transnistria carry Russian broadcasts. Wonder what that says for who has carried out these attacks?

It's within an arms reach of the border with Ukraine, the border there is not guarded at all, even the fence is broken. I have family there, they said the antennas were mined.

RedToothBrush · 26/04/2022 12:55

Tim White AT TWMCltd
Interesting to note that Russia looks like "postponing or even cancelling" forthcoming direct elections of Governors.

Officially it's because it's not advisable to spend money on elections during the "special operation" but looks to me like they fear more rebellious regions.

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