Ukraine Invasion: Part 21

[MagicFox]

Another thread, thank you to all

Surely that's all it is. Rhetoric.

What can they actually do? It's not like they can invade. The Russian hordes are not going to sweep across Europe now. Apart from anything else it's obvious that the horde is more multiple gaggles than a tide, speaking broadly. They have mercenaries but given just how hard the 'subjugation' of Ukraine is proving to be ... they really really can't start invading the UK!

Russia's not going to be in a position to manage much militarily for a long time after this. Putin will keep being aggressive but it'll have to be covertly rather than overtly.

Well, Turkey have their own interests and however much we, sorry, the US push them, they still have to do what they think is best for their country.

As for your posts, I don't really read all of them, it tends to be the same thing. The Black Sea repetition just catches my eye.

@WeAreTheHeroes not really, it needs listening but it was interview with the deputy of the state duma - he was scary to listen to but he sounded utterly convinced re Russian justification and the guilt of the west; convinced too re nazi atrocities committed by ukraine that he'd "seen with my own eyes". At the end the presenter said it was 'refreshing' (weird word but anyway) to hear this perspective even though it sounded so madly counter to the narrative we hear. And his point was that we do need to hear what Russians think

Delurking...
Mumsnet has messed everything up!
I have been reading these threads from the beginning and actually rely on them for my following of this terrible war (big thanks and much appreciation to everyone who contributes).

Now my bookmarks won't work so every time I come on this thread, it takes me to the beginning! Then I can get it to take me to the end... (but not to my bookmark) and have to scroll (backwards) to find my bookmark, makes it really difficult to actually follow the thread!

Any ideas how I can solve this would be much appreciated. (I have logged out and in, deleted app and brought it back...Unwatched then re watched...nothing is working!)

I know people who have stayed in their home in Mykolaiv and they try to continue daily life, gardening, walking the dog etc. and at times have been sheltering in their basement while listening to the shelling. They do a post on FB every morning so we know they are alive and still there (amazing they still have internet) but their posts are about what they hear and see and how they are doing trips to get water and supplies, and optimistically planting things in their garden.

I simply can't trawl the internet and Twitter etc. so these threads with the links etc really help me to keep an eye on what is going on!

Mumsnet HQ PLEASE sort this out!

The Black Sea repetition catches my eye because it is a lie.

@herecomesthsun · 21/04/2022 09:13
www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY

"the Kremlin’s claims that Ukraine is a hornets’ nest of fascists are false: far-right parties performed poorly in Ukraine’s last parliamentary elections, and Ukrainians reacted with alarm to the National Militia’s demonstration in Kiev. But connections between law enforcement agencies and extremists give Ukraine’s Western allies ample reason for concern"

So probably a pretext for a land grab?

That article is from 2018. To what extent is it the same four years later?

God images are worse than useless on this site now aren’t they!

Clicking on an image actually makes it a wee bit smaller 😂
Fecking useless 😭

@FantasticButtocks - I've complained repeatedly about the lack of book marking on the site stuff thread about the changes.

I'm not even seeing a bookmark to help my navigate back to where I was: even though I continue to bookmark hopefully, when I re-open the thread (which is always back at the beginning) and flip it, I have to scroll backwards and try to remember where I was - and then scroll upwards as I read

Really irritating on fast moving (and important) threads like this one

Found this on Twitter

Not sure of the provenance but it made me really sad - and angry

https://twitter.com/chumakiryna/status/1516558988166451202?s=21&t=BA44_GR773mRej8gHLkqb4Q

I had a whole message typed out and a stupid ad refreshed or something as the whole page refreshed and my post was blank! Other than that I’ve not noticed much difference with the site via chrome on my phone.

this article is now outdated as it was published 04/04 however I think it’s still a valid attempt at explaining how there will be no Ukraine before Russia is done and how Russia is already at war with the west and nato. It ends by stating that Russia will no longer be looking to trade or deal with the west and will instead forge alliances with Eastern countries.

It’s lengthy and I suggest you don’t read it if your prone to panic. It’s info we knew (or speculated) anyway and doesn’t increase the likelihood of wmd use now but imo highlights why appeasement would merely be creating problems for our children to deal with in a few years if putin or his hand picked underlings stay in the Kremlin.

ccl.org.ua/en/news/ria-novosti-has-clarified-russias-plans-vis-a-vis-ukraine-and-the-rest-of-the-free-world-in-a-program-like-article-what-russia-should-do-with-ukraine-2/

The site issues aren't so bad on desktop, a lot of the issues must be connected to the app. But it looks terrible and so much wasted space and I think the font has changed because it looks wrong.

I have to concur @MagicFox. What is so bewildering is that many speaking on behalf of Russia seem to genuinely believe what they are saying, that perceived NATO expansion (aggression) and the neo Nazi contingent gave Putin no choice. I don't think they think they are actually lying?! I can clearly see and hear their frustration and incredulity.

Illia Ponomarenko

^It seems like it’s a true thing that Putin wants “at least some victory” in Ukraine by May 9th. Like seizing the whole of Donbas and Mariupol.
Just 19 days to go for Russian generals - no wonder they’re moving in exhausted and underprepared units in Donbas.^
twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1517066336677113856?t=A_aNXRVtTqDE4Fx9TX4ZYw&s=19

I have a suspicion that there's more going on than we know with Western actions at times and that we don't hear everything. ALso that some bad stuff will come out when all this is over. Plus the 2nd Iraq war and Afghanistan were PR catastrophes regarding how the West is seen by the rest of the world.

Also some well-meaning actions have been misperceived and misportrayed.

But while I can see there's the basis for some misinterpretation it's also very clear that any excuse to look badly on the West and Nato has been siezed on and overinflated and twisted. Size one fuckups have been magnified to size 100 and distorted into malevolance rather than fuckup. This has been deliberate.

It's a reflection of Putin's own training and skillset, to manipulate, distort and misrepresent.

@LoveLarry · 21/04/2022 09:40
Found this on Twitter

Not sure of the provenance but it made me really sad - and angry

twitter.com/chumakiryna/status/1516558988166451202?s=21&t=BA44_GR773mRej8gHLkqb4Q.

Those “clean cut” besuited young men speaking are creepy. They remind me of the women in the Stepford Wives but a male version. Female versions stand behind them. They look a bit like Hitler youth too.

Agree. That video smacks of Russian propaganda, along with the caption. Creepy.

This Guardian article is interesting about how more Facebook posts questioning the Bucha atrocities are shared than are those believing and expressing outrage.

it almost seems as though they are framing it as a sort of civil war in UKraine, with the atrocities being committed by Ukrainians against the mass of beleaguered Ukrainians the Russians are ‘helping’.

Facebook posts disputing Bucha atrocities shared 208,000 times in a week | Ukraine | The Guardian

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/21/facebook-posts-disputing-bucha-atrocities-shared-208000-times-in-a-week
amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/21/facebook-posts-disputing-bucha-atrocities-shared-208000-times-in-a-week

A report by Human Rights Watch has documented cases of apparent execution of civilians in Bucha, while the Guardian has also reported witness accounts of widespread violence.
^Posts questioning evidence of Russian violence against civilians were present in Italy, Austria and the Czech Republic, among other EU countries.
The most shared post about Bucha in Austria – also the third most shared post in Germany – contained text copied from a pro-Russian German language outlet called Anti-Spiegel.^
Echoing a Russian interpretation of the events, the post suggested that the victims were in reality killed by the Ukrainian army as a punishment for their support of the Russian army.

sorry, I thought that was March 2022. I still haven't found any evidence that the claim that Ukrainians are Nazis is much more than a pretext for war and conquest though.

On Newsnight last night they said that Russia guranteed the lives of Ukrainian soldier when they took Crimea in 2014 under similar circumstances. So the soldiers surrendered and Russia killed them all.

www.ft.com/content/7191ec30-9677-423d-873c-e72b64725c2d

“The way that Putin and the Kremlin use the terms ‘Nazism’ and ‘fascism’ is rooted in the Soviet era when, then and now, it means anybody who does not want to be either part of the Soviet Union or part of the Russian world,”

Please would someone tell me how to find ‘search’ for past posts and subjects with dates? I used by be able to find this I using the magnifying glass. Now it seems there is only an option for a more vague search.

James Waterhouse AT jamwaterhouse
Ukraine's s demanding Russia lets 1000 civilians and 500 wounded soldiers leave Mariupol's Azovstal plant.

"They all need to be taken out today!" said Deputy Prime Minister Iryna Vereshchuk on Telegram.

Vladimir Putin's ordered his troops to seal the area so even a "fly" cannot escape.

There were buses leaving to Zaporizhzhia yesterday - but there was caution about using them because of concerns about the behaviour of the Russian forces.

Which leaves the question of how an evacuation could be made safe, were another agreement to be reached about this.

Putin's not looking so great in this vid: twitter.com/kevinrothrock/status/1517037384508055555?s=21&t=bvTpwvr0gqyfmJ9D3HZ4kA

I listened to a podcast this morning about the use of magic in warfare and apparently there are lots of witches 'handbinding' Putin; apparently this happened with Hitler and Trump too. Who knew?! Handbind away, I say.