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Ukraine Invasion: Part 21

1003 replies

MagicFox · 16/04/2022 21:01

Another thread, thank you to all

OP posts:
Thread gallery
50
strawberriesarenot · 21/04/2022 07:59

I don't want to trivialise anything, but what do you think of the Wimbledon decision? Surely just giving Putin more propaganda material.

elephantmarchingin · 21/04/2022 07:59

I know this won't be popular here but my history degree can't help but mention it!

All those calling for more arms to be sent to Ukraine we have sent billions upon billions of ponds of arms already.

The uk only has so much ready prepared - don't forget our defence budget is down. New things can be ordered of course but they are not instant!

The governments are dammed if they do dammed if they don't if they do then next year taxes will soar whilst we try and put money back into defence to replace what we have lost then they loose favour as taxes will be so high. Not to forget if they send that much we potentially leave ourselves open to issues should we be involved....

It is not a simple send more arms more planning and thought must go into it

Alexandra2001 · 21/04/2022 08:04

Ijsbear · 20/04/2022 23:13

... and I hope God infuses those decisions with, at last, some compassion.

This is an article which is awful, but if you read on it also shows that some perhaps many Russian soldiers tell parents to hide their children. Not all of them are brutal. kyivindependent.com/national/hide-the-girls-how-russian-soldiers-rape-and-torture-ukrainians/

I couldn't care less what a few soldiers say or don't, they may have very evil motives to know where women are.

That article is extremely upsetting and as far as i am concerned ALL these Russians (i wont call them soldiers) in Ukraine are out of control animals.

Alexandra2001 · 21/04/2022 08:09

@elephantmarchingin The amounts we are sending, in the 100s of millions, will not cause taxes to rise.

We are still going head with defence spending cuts, so we obviously do not care too much about future conflict.

However, by not lifting the Black Sea blockade we are ensuring world food supply issues and around 40% price increases.

RedToothBrush · 21/04/2022 08:09

Michael Weiss AT MichaelDWeiss
New from AT holger_r and me: "Karl," our Estonian defense specialist, offers his insights into Russia's eastern offensive.

"The offensive started at the weekend. That’s when the intensity of the battles grew. We know because Russia’s losses were higher than on the days before."

"This phase will be different than when the war started on Feb 24. Russia will not attack across the whole frontline, simultaneously. The intensity of fighting is roughly twice as much as what came before."

"The Russians are focused on two axes: 1) Izyum, 2) Severodonetsk and surrounding towns. They've had some success in Kreminna, but that’s a tactical decision by Ukraine. 130 Russians were hospitalized from there in the last day. This indicates dozens were killed. That’s a lot."

"Perspective: If Russia doesn’t succeed in 1.5 weeks, their offensive will subside. Then a countdown starts for Ukraine’s counteroffensive. I’m still cautiously optimistic about Russia not succeeding."

"Russia simply doesn’t have enough forces in the east. Ukraine believes they have 90 BTGs; the U.S. says it’s less than 80. Ukraine has at least the same number of troops to defend."

"Russia has more armor, tanks, and artillery. Ukraine has more precision weapons but not enough to react all along the front. Russia has too many 'dumb' weapons, which makes a Ukrainian counteroffensive difficult."

"Ukraine's tactics remains the same: ambush battles, destruction of convoys. Ukraine can’t do force v. force and doesn't try to."

"Another positive: Ukraine keeps getting new arms, new equipment. Russia can’t get it from anywhere and only gets weaker. The supply chain from Russia to Izyum is as long as from Belarus to Kyiv. This makes Russia more careful than it was in the beginning of the war."

"Mariupol falling would be a PR win for Russia but wouldn’t have too much of an impact militarily. Russia's BTGs battling there are in no condition to continue fighting on another front. That said, I don't believe Mariupol will fall in the next few days."

"Ukraine has experience from 2014 when it held onto the Donetsk Int'l Airport for six months. The area of the Azovstal steel factory is many times larger. Every possible war scenario indicated Russia would encircle Mariupol. Ukraine stocked it with ammunition and food."

"The goal of striking Kramatorsk railway station wasn’t to hinder Ukraine's military movements. It was to complicate civilian evacuation. Civilians in the battlespace affects Ukrainian troops. Russia, on the contrary, doesn't care about civilian lives."

"Russia has 10-12 BTGs in reserve behind its borders but no one knows their real condition. It’s complicated to get the BTGs to full capacity. Russia is desperately mobilizing from DNR/LNR..."

"They're force 55-60 year-old men into the Russian army. It’s a huge and desperate risk as among them are those who will turn their weapons against that army."

"I can't see how Russia can declare a big win in two weeks (before May 9). It can get tiny tactical wins only. There is no reason why Ukraine's defenses should fail."

"Regarding the possibility of Russia's holding a referendum to declare a Kherson People’s Republic: if they open polling stations, this creates a very good opportunity for Ukrainian partisan operations..."

"It's a very risky gambit for Russia. See today’s news about a pro-Russian blogger getting shot & killed in Kherson."

"Public opinion in Russia can change only if the battle of Donbass fails. There’s no force inside the country to effectively oppose the war. Soldiers’ mothers come the closest." / ENDS

MagicFox · 21/04/2022 08:26

I do take @elephantmarchingin that we also need to look to our own defence production and budget, particularly now that the rhetoric is getting more aggressive re the the UK

OP posts:
WeAreTheHeroes · 21/04/2022 08:37

We watched Newsnight last night. Around 10 minutes in Kirsty Wark interviews Sergei Markov, a former advisor to Putin. He seems convinced there are neo Nazis in Ukraine. Are we missing something in the background to the invasion? She cuts him short at the end of the interview so you never hear his fourth point.

Newsnight, 20/04/2022: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0016mq6

I know the Azov group was discussed on earlier threads, but from what I recall most of the discussion centred on them being only around 800 in number and therefore small in relation to the total numbers in the Ukrainian forces.

MagicFox · 21/04/2022 08:41

@WeAreTheHeroes this was the point made on yesterdays ukrainecast - that we have to listen to and understand more of what's beneath the surface to avoid further escalation.

OP posts:
Igotjelly · 21/04/2022 08:44

Who knows what their real intentions are

Ukraine Invasion: Part 21
ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 21/04/2022 08:45

However, by not lifting the Black Sea blockade we are ensuring world food supply issues and around 40% price increases.

Alexandra2001 you keep posting about the Black Sea when many posters, not just me have posted out to you that it's governed by Montreux Convention and in addition Turkey has sovereignty over the Turkish Straights.

Who are the we who have to open the Back Sea, according to you?

blueshoes · 21/04/2022 08:46

RedToothBrush thanks for the latest update on the Donbass battlefield. I was wondering why there was no great clash of tanks and fearful that Ukraine was being outgunned. It gives some hope that giving up Kreminna is part of an overall strategy by Ukraine to do skirmishes and ambushes before a bigger counteroffensive once the Russian forces have exhausted themselves more.

Amazing that Ukraine wargamed that Mariupol would be encircled and stocked the Mariupol steel factory with food and ammo in advance. They must have maps of the warrens and passages there. It does not make the situation in the steel factory any less desperate. Incredible and nothing short of a miracle they are still holding out there. We just need another miracle for them to get out.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 21/04/2022 08:47

Sorry, pointed out, not posted out.

blueshoes · 21/04/2022 08:57

Igotjelly · 21/04/2022 08:44

Who knows what their real intentions are

Really dislike the new look site. These images are so small I cannot read the teeny text. One half of my screen is a column of ads and the messages are reduced to a narrow column which does not widen even on a wide screen. Just awful. Not fit for purpose for a message board.

Igotjelly · 21/04/2022 09:03

blueshoes · 21/04/2022 08:57

Really dislike the new look site. These images are so small I cannot read the teeny text. One half of my screen is a column of ads and the messages are reduced to a narrow column which does not widen even on a wide screen. Just awful. Not fit for purpose for a message board.

Oh you’re right, I hadn’t opened one before. What a crock of shit this new look is.

it basically says that Putin has called off the storming of the steel plant and instead is blockading it so that “not even a fly” could get in or out unnoticed. It says that Russia guarantees the lives of those in the plant.

ScrollingLeaves · 21/04/2022 09:04

@WeAreTheHeroes · 21/04/2022 08:37
We watched Newsnight last night. Around 10 minutes in Kirsty Wark interviews Sergei Markov, a former advisor to Putin. He seems convinced there are neo Nazis in Ukraine. Are we missing something in the background to the invasion? She cuts him short at the end of the interview so you never hear his fourth point.*

Newsnight, 20/04/2022: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0016mq6 

I know the Azov group was discussed on earlier threads, but from what I recall most of the discussion centred on them being only around 800 in number and therefore small in relation to the total numbers in the Ukrainian forces.

Someone within this discussion wrote a very good summation of this issue of nazism perhaps about two weeks ago. Unfortunately I can’t find it. Can anyone else recall this?

PestorPeston · 21/04/2022 09:05

www.vesselfinder.com
The black Sea is only blockaded for large and non resident naval vessels.

Active war in Ukrainian ports is what is stopping the flow of grain.

blueshoes · 21/04/2022 09:10

Igotjelly · 21/04/2022 09:03

Oh you’re right, I hadn’t opened one before. What a crock of shit this new look is.

it basically says that Putin has called off the storming of the steel plant and instead is blockading it so that “not even a fly” could get in or out unnoticed. It says that Russia guarantees the lives of those in the plant.

Igotjelly thanks for the summary. Putin talks shit too.

Sunnierdays · 21/04/2022 09:13

I have just seen something so disturbing on twitter it’s affected me mentally . Russian soldiers had tortured a dog and cut his paws off he was walking on stumps . I just can’t understand this , heartbreaking 😢 he was rescued by an animal charity 😢

Igotjelly · 21/04/2022 09:13

blueshoes · 21/04/2022 09:10

Igotjelly thanks for the summary. Putin talks shit too.

Yes absolutely agree. Chances of any of their lives being respected are slim to non-existent I suspect.

herecomesthsun · 21/04/2022 09:13

www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY

"the Kremlin’s claims that Ukraine is a hornets’ nest of fascists are false: far-right parties performed poorly in Ukraine’s last parliamentary elections, and Ukrainians reacted with alarm to the National Militia’s demonstration in Kiev. But connections between law enforcement agencies and extremists give Ukraine’s Western allies ample reason for concern".

So probably a pretext for a land grab?

Igotjelly · 21/04/2022 09:14

Sunnierdays · 21/04/2022 09:13

I have just seen something so disturbing on twitter it’s affected me mentally . Russian soldiers had tortured a dog and cut his paws off he was walking on stumps . I just can’t understand this , heartbreaking 😢 he was rescued by an animal charity 😢

And if this is what they’ll do to a dog god help any humans they encounter.

Alexandra2001 · 21/04/2022 09:15

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 21/04/2022 08:45

However, by not lifting the Black Sea blockade we are ensuring world food supply issues and around 40% price increases.

Alexandra2001 you keep posting about the Black Sea when many posters, not just me have posted out to you that it's governed by Montreux Convention and in addition Turkey has sovereignty over the Turkish Straights.

Who are the we who have to open the Back Sea, according to you?

...and as i have pointed out, the US has huge sway over Turkey and we are not even trying.

As always, its down to how much we are willing to do and push back but condemning the developing world to starvation will not end well.

I'd have thought the "we" is quite obvious, as always, only the Americans have the means to do this and as a keen follower of my posts, you must have missed i've stated this before on many occasions.

If we are not willing to do this or even try, it doesn't bode well for Taiwan does it.

ScrollingLeaves · 21/04/2022 09:18

@Sunnierdays · 21/04/2022 09:13

I have just seen something so disturbing on twitter it’s affected me mentally . Russian soldiers had tortured a dog and cut his paws off he was walking on stumps . I just can’t understand this , heartbreaking 😢 he was rescued by an animal charity

Oh, Sunnierdays what words are there for the horror?

WeAreTheHeroes · 21/04/2022 09:18

@MagicFox - are you able to summarise please?

Sunnierdays · 21/04/2022 09:20

@Igotjelly I know, there are no words strong enough to describe this horror 😢

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