Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 21

1003 replies

MagicFox · 16/04/2022 21:01

Another thread, thank you to all

OP posts:
Thread gallery
50
TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 19/04/2022 18:34

Plenty of giant basement extensions among the super rich already…

Ijsbear · 19/04/2022 18:41

Could you really evacuate many people quickly enough in the case of a chemical factory explosion?

I have serious doubts. The one in our borough was big enough to cause a LOT of problems if something had gone wrong or, in those days, there had been an IRA attack.

blueshoes · 19/04/2022 18:44

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

Plenty of giant basement extensions among the super rich already…
Those iceberg houses in Belgravia have a tendency to collapse even without shelling. At least they have an indoor swimming pool to drink from.
prettybird · 19/04/2022 18:54

I've been discussing with dh what we could use for a bomb shelter (we're in a conversion: the upper half of a large stone Victorian villa - and our downstairs neighbours don't have a basement themselves). The houses across the road, which are built on a slope, are split in three rather than two, so we're pondering getting friendlier with the woman who lives in the "basement flat" Wink (no great hardship as she's very nice Smile).

Not that I'm assuming an imminent nuclear attack (during the Cold War, my plan had been to drive towards where the greatest risk was Hmm) but it was seeing the devastation that "ordinary" artillery and missiles can wreak Sad that made us wonder what we'd do in similar circumstances Sad

Natsku · 19/04/2022 18:58

Just remembered about the raid on a rich Russian 'business' man's property in Finland a few years ago, found extensive bunkers. And helipads, possibly preparing a nice entry site for military helicopters.

@prettybird no harm in making friends with the woman in the basement flat. I'd certainly open up my basement to neighbours who don't have one or only have half basements like the house across the road where its more like some kind of storage space because you can't stand up straight in it.

MagicFox · 19/04/2022 19:00

And I didn't think this thread could get any more depressing ConfusedGrin

OP posts:
Natsku · 19/04/2022 19:07

I went into a brief panic at the start of the war and bought water storage containers, put a 'toilet' bin in the basement and moved things around to make room for mattresses there. This series of threads soon helped me calm down my panic!

RedToothBrush · 19/04/2022 19:09

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

Plenty of giant basement extensions among the super rich already…
I'm sure there's a joke about cockroaches somewhere in this thread!
YorkshireLondonMiss · 19/04/2022 19:09

@MagicFox not that I think we should deny it could ever happen but I’m in a personal hell reading it all 😂

prettybird · 19/04/2022 19:09

It's just contingency planning @MagicFox - along the lines of what councils should be doing. Just as major hospitals have Majax protocols in case of a major accident - but they hope never to have to put them into practice.

@Natsku - we're already friends so I'm sure that there wouldn't be a problem. She's also a recently retired GP which would be useful Wink - especially if she also accommodates our downstairs' neighbours, who are themselves both GPs Grin

Natsku · 19/04/2022 19:12

Well that's handy then! Maybe I should map out which of my neighbours are useful.

Ijsbear · 19/04/2022 19:16

Well seeing as Dutch houses are build on a giant beach or even actually start off floating, we're fucked!

www.bbc.com/future/article/20220202-floating-homes-the-benefits-of-living-on-water

Although for an alternative these houses are pretty interesting, though not bombproof

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cube_house

RedToothBrush · 19/04/2022 19:39

Michael A. Horowitz @michaelh992
As of now, the offensive did not lead to any significant change (still early). It started with a heavy artillery barrage. Russia also claims to have carried out a series of "high-precision" missile strikes on targets in the Donbass.

Jimmy @JimmySecUK
This pretty much echoes my understand of the situation: Russia's offensive in the Donbas doesn't look like it's made any big gains so far (with the caveat it's still early and we're operating with imperfect information).

This is probably already worrying Moscow as typically the first few hours/days of an offensive are when you'd expect to make the largest gains - your units should be at the highest levels of combat readiness/effectiveness and they should know exactly what they're doing.

There's obviously an open question as to how effective units relocated from the Kyiv/Sumy/Cherniv fronts can actually be: like many, I was surprised to see elements of the 4th Guards Tank Division apparently preparing to take part in this offensive - they've taken massive losses.

Fundamentally even with vastly more limited aims there's no guarantee this army can actually achieve these aims: none of the problems we saw in the first few weeks of the war have been fixed. C2 is still poor, morale is awful, they don't have air superiority, etc. etc.

And a thread with a bit of a counter point that the Russians like to wear down first:

Mark Hertling @MarkHertling
Russia has begun shelling w/ artillery.

RU doctrine emphasizes leading w/ massive arty prep. It's what they do.

Artillery is "imprecise." It hits areas, not targets (unless it's precision guided).

Each size shell has a CEP (circular area of probability) for killing. 1/7

Artillery is a physical & psychological weapon:

-Those who fire arty don't "see" the target (other than on plots). Those on the receiving end know it's incoming when it strikes.

-Arty can kill, maim, cause concussions & bleeding ears.

But most of all, they cause fear. 2/

RU artillery can fire ranges up to about 30 miles (if they use rocket assisted projectiles, or RAP) to 22-50 miles (like the Uragan multiple launched rocket systems)

The only way to stop: find them (through counter-fire radar or overhead drones), then fire at them. 3/

The purposes of arty prep fire is to kill, cause confusion, create chaos & open terrain for others (tank/infantry) to pass through (the "breakthrough).

Artillery must fire from stationary positions.

They need lots of resupply & they're easy to spot.

And RU has lots of it. 4/

Ukraine also has artillery - tubed and rockets. Just not as much as the Russians.

UA also has Q36 counter-fire radars, below left, to "find" RU artillery locations. RU has 1L259 (right)

UA has proven themselves very competent in connecting intel to targeting. 5/

RU artillery prep can last hours, days, or weeks (depending on amount of ammo).

They will likely "stagger" their prep in different areas along the front line of the Donbas, so UA must be prepared for RU ground force breakthrough at many points along the front. 6/

I suspect RU may use their arty prep to "buy time" for their forces to continue to regenerate & form in the Donbas.

Ukraine will conduct spoiling attacks against logistics columns to prevent the Russians from supplying and moving their forces.

More to follow. 7/7

Igotjelly · 19/04/2022 19:43

Be worth a pretty penny one day! Should use a few to send Mail to Russia…

Ukraine Invasion: Part 21
Igotjelly · 19/04/2022 19:47

Back to days rather than hours. Seriously impressive on the part of the Ukrainians

Ukraine Invasion: Part 21
JacquelineCarlyle · 19/04/2022 19:50

The Ukrainians really are amazing!

RedToothBrush · 19/04/2022 19:53

Jack Detsch @JackDetsch
Senior U.S. defense officials wrapped up a briefing a while ago describing how the Pentagon sees Russia's war in Ukraine on day 54.

Here are some of the highlights, including Russia's military footprint in Donbas and the latest shipments of U.S. weapons to Ukraine.

First off, DoD officials briefed on weapons going into Ukraine.

The turnaround from U.S. to the battlefield in Ukraine is moving as quickly as 48 - 72 hours.

But we're not getting much fidelity on whether U.S. is providing Ukraine enough ammo.

Russian missile launches into Ukraine have plateaued around 30 a day over the course of the 54-day conflict.

That's way down from the 50 a day average Russia was firing in the early going.

But Ukraine has been obscured by clouds, limiting U.S. visibility.

The Pentagon is being much more conservative in describing Russia's military operations in Donbas than Zelensky.

U.S. thinks this is a prelude to a bigger offensive, with Russia still adding troops.

Russia is now up to 78 BTGs in Ukraine, up 13 from last week.

The US will deliver SEVEN planeloads of military aid bound for Ukraine to the region in the next 24 hr from Biden $800m package. Another flight arrived yday.

US is prioritizing deliveries of artillery systems, after Zelensky asked for as many as possible

The U.S. sees Russia's focus so far on Donetsk and Izyum

But this is a bit more conservative than Ukraine's military, which is describing Russian attacks all along defensive lines in and around Donbas, including in Kharkiv, Luhansk, and Donetsk.

Russia added 2 battalion tactical groups into Ukraine in the last 24 hr, US believes.

Russia is massing aviation & combat support in Belarus & Western Russia.

That's a lesson learned from the Kyiv campaign, where Russia lacked proper logistical support.

Russia still has a lot of its arsenal left for the Ukraine fight, including aviation & ballistic missiles.

But it's down to just 65 % of the 120 BTGs it started with before the invasion.

Perhaps up to 20 % of them were refitting outside Ukraine recently.

Russia has a shorter logistical tail to fight in Donbas, since it is right on the border and more conducive to tank warfare, officials said.

But it still has 11 BTGs tied down in besieged Mariupol, which Russia wants to seize to build a land bridge to Crimea

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 19/04/2022 20:23

Igotjelly
who voluntarily says they won’t use the one thing that gives them leverage.

I have a memory of Jeremy Corbyn announcing that if he became Prime Minister he would never authorise the use of nuclear weapons. It was the reason someone I knew gave for not voting Labour last time round: she found it horrifically stupid and didn't want to trust the country to someone who didn't know what the word "deterrent" meant.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 19/04/2022 20:24

(As far as I know it was the only time in her life she didn't vote.)

DoctorSnortles · 19/04/2022 20:36

@MagicFox

I just can't stand it when talk veers towards normalising nuclear weapons or talking about them in a really gung ho way. I think we should be really careful about it
Me too. I mean, I really appreciate the contributions from people who know about this stuff and write about it in a measured way, but all the ‘jolly jokes’ about bunkers and the gung-ho stuff is really distasteful. And makes me feel a bit sick.
Igotjelly · 19/04/2022 20:36

Just watching the news and they are interviewing a doctor who specialises in working with those who are victims of gender based violence. Truly remarkable woman. I need to keep reminding myself that there are as many (if not more) wonderful people as there are terrible ones. Humanity and love endure even in such dark times.

Igotjelly · 19/04/2022 20:37

@Igotjelly

Just watching the news and they are interviewing a doctor who specialises in working with those who are victims of gender based violence. Truly remarkable woman. I need to keep reminding myself that there are as many (if not more) wonderful people as there are terrible ones. Humanity and love endure even in such dark times.
Should have said she’s Ukrainian and based in Kyiv so currently working with women and children who have experienced rape in the war.
TiddyTidTwo · 19/04/2022 20:45

We are not doing enough in my opinion. Putin waving his Willy and we are doing "just" enough. But it's not.

We can either let that arsehole continue forever more under threat of nukes which means he commits genocide at will, or do something meaningful.

I don't want to live in a world where a little fat faced despot kills innocents with impunity'cos "I've got nukes"

Well so have fucking we.

Listening to sky news last hour with a specialist. NATO could destroy his fleet in the Black Sea in 24 hours. Putin knows this. His army is antiquated, their morale is in the sewer. Hence why he threatens.

Now the bombing of a hospital. Where is the fucking red line? When ukraines citizens are dead or shipped off to camps, cities reduced to rubble?? Would we accept that in our country? If that little turd takes Ukraine then we are all on borrowed time

Rant over

PaperTyger · 19/04/2022 20:50

I sent think they are jolly joke's about bunker's at all.
I grew up with two parents making jokes about them And they had too bloody well use them.
Poor dm early life was punctated by the side of sirens, air raid shelters and an absent father at the front.

Humour is what got her and my GM through it all.

Life turns on. Six pence...I think it's prudent to always cast ones mind over... what would I do if X happend?
In any situation.... only recently we were told too do this in new places like theatres after the Isis bataclan massacre

PerkingFaintly · 19/04/2022 20:50

My knowledge of artillery barrages comes from WWI. The classic pattern then was a big bombardment followed by lots of infantry moving forward – the infamous "going over the top".

The intention was:
a) to kill the enemy in their trenches or drive them into shelters away from their defensive positions;
b) to cut the barbed wire so infantry could move forwards.

Sometimes it got more complicated with a rolling barrage, ie the barrage advanced over time, co-ordinated with the infantry advance. Troops hated this as things got fucked up pretty quickly if dud shells fell short or if the infantry advance didn't keep up with the gunners.

Intention (b) used to fail regularly, with the barrage failing to cut wire. Intention (a) used to fail when it was the Germans on the receiving end, because they had well-positioned, superior, deep, concrete bunkers. The moment the shelling stopped the Germans would pour back into their trenches ready to open fire on the advancing Allies, who were struggling to move through intact wire and over newly churned ground.

Um, not sure if that has any relevance for what's going on today in Ukraine, but TL;DR: the effectiveness of bombardment + ground assault was heavily dependent on the quality of the other guy's bunker.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.