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Boris has been fined - Part 2

988 replies

cakeorwine · 13/04/2022 21:00

Because this is going to go on and on.....
With more fines

Part 1 here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4528104-boris-has-been-fined-tory-voters-should-he-go

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Peregrina · 16/04/2022 12:18

Putin is indeed laughing.

They have got the measure of Johnson's Government. Pity they didn't add Gove and Rees-Mogg while they were about it.

cakeorwine · 16/04/2022 12:19

@Notonthestairs

So they definitely know more FPNs are coming and are trying out defences.

The No10 defence if more fines come:
“If you’re caught speeding at 35mph four times, that doesn’t mean that you were speeding at 140mph. It doesn’t mean that you really endangered life because the cumulative effect of all your speeding in 30mph zones amounts to 140pmh, does it?” - from Paul Waugh on Twitter.

And the Secret Barrister's response -

"If you are caught speeding 4 times in 3 years, the law operates to automatically disqualify you from driving, precisely because your cumulative conduct represents a danger to the public".

Maybe Johnson needs to go on a course about Covid guidelines?
OP posts:
DuncinToffee · 16/04/2022 12:35

Civil Servants look to become the next scapegoats, they are already being put in the firing line over Rwanda

Blossomtoes · 16/04/2022 13:07

I saw a report this morning that a lot of civil servants are applying for transfers out of the Home Office or leaving the civil service altogether over Rwanda. What with that and the UN verdict, hopefully Patel will be toast.

cakeorwine · 16/04/2022 13:09

@DuncinToffee

Civil Servants look to become the next scapegoats, they are already being put in the firing line over Rwanda
I wonder how many Civil Servants have secrets on Johnson et al.

Photos etc.....of social gatherings.

OP posts:
Puzzledandpissedoff · 16/04/2022 13:19

I saw a report this morning that a lot of civil servants are applying for transfers out of the Home Office or leaving the civil service altogether over Rwanda

I could just about see the transfers, Blossom, but very much doubt anyone will leave such a cushy number over this - though if for whatever reason they were going anyway they might claim so

Doubt they'll be made scapegoats either; ministers may try, but with the almost total lack of accountability there's little chance of anything sticking

lightisnotwhite · 16/04/2022 13:34

@Roussette

I can't get over people saying he is THE ONLY ONE capable of leading us, it's laughable! Much as you don't know respect his inner circle, we know who they are, there ARE decent conservatives with more moral fibre and more trustworthy than him. The party don't think much of themselves do they, if BJ to them is the only capable one
So where are they then? Surely a decent candidate for MP ( with moral fibre and therefore appalled by BJ) has the chutzpah to put themselves forward. Even the opposition can only moan about stuff rather than address the issues.
cakeorwine · 16/04/2022 13:46

So where are they then? Surely a decent candidate for MP ( with moral fibre and therefore appalled by BJ) has the chutzpah to put themselves forward

I guess just waiting for the right time.

Put yourself forward and then Johnson wins a vote of No Confidence?
Political suicide

OP posts:
Puzzledandpissedoff · 16/04/2022 13:48

The link's behind a paywall, Blossom, but if it's the usual journalistic hyperbole I wouldn't take too much notice

Blossomtoes · 16/04/2022 13:49

No MP can put themselves forward until there’s a vacancy. They need to get rid of Johnson first.

Blossomtoes · 16/04/2022 13:53

@Puzzledandpissedoff

The link's behind a paywall, Blossom, but if it's the usual journalistic hyperbole I wouldn't take too much notice
Sorry, I’ll do another Clav.

Priti Patel is facing a mutiny from Home Office civil servants over her controversial Rwanda policy after a leading mandarin formally challenged its value for money.

Unions representing Whitehall workers warned of mass walk-outs and transfer requests over the ethical and legal implications of the policy to send illegal migrants 5,000 miles to the African country for processing.

The threat from civil servants will reinforce concerns among top Conservatives about the dysfunctional nature of the Home Office which has repeatedly faced questions over its handling of immigration.

It comes after Boris Johnson said he was prepared to take on human rights lawyers and parts of the Left-leaning establishment to enact the policy to slash illegal migration into the UK.

Home Office sources confirmed that Ms Patel had to force civil servants to sign off on the Rwanda partnership plan by issuing a ministerial direction – required when officials challenge policy proposals on value for money grounds.

The direction is thought to have been sought by Matthew Rycroft, the permanent secretary at the Home Office for the past two years. It is only the second ministerial direction the Home Office has received in the past 30 years, along with bringing forward the Windrush compensation scheme before legislation.

This is despite the policy being expected to cost between £20,000 and £30,000 per migrant, covering hotel accommodation before departure, the flight to Rwanda and the first three months of accommodation there.

Tom Pursglove, the immigration minister, also said on Friday that sending migrants to Rwanda would save Britain money in the "longer term".

Ms Patel, the Home Secretary, set out details in Kigali, the Rwandan capital, of a deal to send asylum seekers who entered the UK illegally to the country, where they would be given an opportunity to build a "new life".

The policy has split Left and Right, with new polling from Find Out Now showing that it is overwhelmingly popular among Conservative and Leave voters, while as few as one in 10 Labour voters back it.

It has also caused deep disquiet in Whitehall, where civil servants could down tools and walk out rather than implement it. One official, who works outside the Home Office, told The Telegraph that the Rwanda plan was "taking 'hostile environment' to a whole new level".

Dave Penman, the general secretary of the FDA trade union, which has 19,000 members, warned that officials could demand a transfer from the Home Office or leave the civil service entirely rather than deliver the policy.

"As a civil servant, your choice is either to implement the Government's policy or resign," he said. "The Home Office is often where the most controversial policies happen, but people will say that a line has been crossed.

"Their choice will be either to go along with it or leave the Home Office. It will be the case that a lot of people will leave either the department or the civil service."

The Public and Commercial Services Union (PCS), the largest in the Civil Service with nearly 180,000 members, said that "to attempt to claim this is anything other than utterly inhumane is sheer hypocrisy".

The PCS, which represents the vast majority of border force staff, said earlier this year that it would go on strike over Ms Patel's "morally reprehensible" plans to "push back" small boats in the Channel.

Home Office sources confirmed that the Home Secretary had issued a ministerial direction with regard to the Rwanda partnership because of the lack of certainty that the plans offered good value for money for the taxpayer.

However, friends of Ms Patel shrugged off concerns, saying civil servants had not quit over previous scandals such as Windrush.

On Friday night, a source pointed out that the asylum system costs £1.5 billion per year, including £4.7 million a day on hotels for those who have arrived illegally and through resettlement programmes.

The source said: "Home office officials are clear that deterring illegal entry would create significant savings. However, such a deterrent effect cannot be quantified with certainty.

"It would be wrong to let a lack of precise modelling delay a policy aimed at reducing illegal migration, saving lives, and breaking the business model of the smuggling gangs."

On Friday, Ms Patel insisted her Rwanda plan was a "blueprint" for other countries to follow, telling reporters there was "frustration" among her counterparts in other European countries about the current asylum system. She said many have followed details of her Rwanda deal with interest.

She revealed that the Danish government has been in talks with Rwanda for two years and even proposed striking a joint deal with the UK to relocate migrants there.

Roussette · 16/04/2022 13:59

So where are they then? Surely a decent candidate for MP ( with moral fibre and therefore appalled by BJ) has the chutzpah to put themselves forward.

God knows, I presume they're silenced

Puzzledandpissedoff · 16/04/2022 14:07

Very many thanks for the C&P, Blossom; as expected, it all seems to be "threats", "sources", "thought to be's" and a relevant observation that no mass departures followed the Windrush scandal

As ever I think I'll wait until something actually happens beyond distraction headlines and the usual media nonsense ...

DowningStreetParty · 16/04/2022 14:10

‘Cushy number’ being a civil servant?

I wouldn’t want to work for Border Force for any money. I have full respect for those who do, it’s a hard job and full of abuse and trying to help people in harrowing scenarios and seeing things daily that the rest of us wouldn’t want to see in a month of Sundays.
Civil servants (the kind who don’t work in Downing Street) get paid low wages just like anyone else and also have all sorts of shit to deal with in their daily work. You can’t generalise that it’s ‘cushy’. Hmm

Across the whole civil service, the majority of staff (55%, or almost 250,000 civil servants) are paid below £30,000 – with nearly a one in 10 civil servants (9%) paid under £20,000. Salaries over £40,00 are less common: just under 90,000 civil servants earn over £40,000 a year – less than half the number of those who earn between £20,000 and £30,000.

Whole article here if anyone is interested: www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/civil-service-pay

Puzzledandpissedoff · 16/04/2022 14:43

I wouldn’t want to work for Border Force for any money

Neither would I, but as with all forms of public service it's not those working in the front line I was referring to (they don't make or enable the decisions anyway) but the desk jockeys and committee fodder infesting the background

It's perfectly true that the majority aren't hugely paid - though where it exists the job for life aspect has a certain value - but IM(long)E that's understandable since many would be unemployable in any other sphere

DowningStreetParty · 16/04/2022 15:58

‘Desk jockeys’ made me smile Smile I know who you are talking about Puzzled but I have to say the civil servants I meet at are decent hardworking and low paid and so I just felt it’s unfair that they are being lumped in with the infinitesimally tiny number who would ever get anywhere close to be ligging with special advisors in Downing Street.

jgw1 · 16/04/2022 16:42
It is in the Torygraph so probably just some more right wing rabble rousing to try and bring down the government.
jgw1 · 16/04/2022 16:50

[quote DowningStreetParty]‘Cushy number’ being a civil servant?

I wouldn’t want to work for Border Force for any money. I have full respect for those who do, it’s a hard job and full of abuse and trying to help people in harrowing scenarios and seeing things daily that the rest of us wouldn’t want to see in a month of Sundays.
Civil servants (the kind who don’t work in Downing Street) get paid low wages just like anyone else and also have all sorts of shit to deal with in their daily work. You can’t generalise that it’s ‘cushy’. Hmm

Across the whole civil service, the majority of staff (55%, or almost 250,000 civil servants) are paid below £30,000 – with nearly a one in 10 civil servants (9%) paid under £20,000. Salaries over £40,00 are less common: just under 90,000 civil servants earn over £40,000 a year – less than half the number of those who earn between £20,000 and £30,000.

Whole article here if anyone is interested: www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/civil-service-pay[/quote]
So actually what you are saying is that a civil servant costs us about the same for a year as sending an asylum seeker to Rwanda.

Could we not just employee the asylum seekers to help speed up the asylum system?

Fulmine · 16/04/2022 16:53
Any chance of a copy and paste? I can't see it without signing up, which I don't particularly want to do.
Fulmine · 16/04/2022 16:53

Sorry, ignore me, you're ahead of me.

Fulmine · 16/04/2022 17:00

"This is despite the policy being expected to cost between £20,000 and £30,000 per migrant, covering hotel accommodation before departure, the flight to Rwanda and the first three months of accommodation there."

You can see why the Permanent Secretary doesn't think the costings are right. Every one of those migrants is going to have a valid legal challenge, and even if they lose (which they won't) that will add another #20K minimum in legal costs, plus massively increase the time they spend in hotel accommodation whilst all that is going on. It makes way more sense economically to process their asylum claims normally and send migrants back to their own countries if they are not valid claims.

I'm pretty shocked that they only envisage supporting migrants for 3 months, too. What is supposed to happen to them after that period if they can't find a job? It'll be difficult enough for the men, God help the women and children.

Fulmine · 16/04/2022 17:05

@cakeorwine

Maybe Tory Ministers should be asked if they think Johnson is the only Tory MP capable of leading the Government?
They probably won't, but it's fair to say that Johnson has surrounded himself with so many incompetents that I would really hope the Conservatives are looking beyond them. The only one with a brain is Gove, and they're never going to vote him in unless they're desperate.
itsgettingweird · 16/04/2022 18:00

@Peregrina

Putin is indeed laughing.

They have got the measure of Johnson's Government. Pity they didn't add Gove and Rees-Mogg while they were about it.

They've banned Cruella.

There goes my hopes of her being banished from our town to far off lands WinkGrin

SueSaid · 16/04/2022 18:56

@Peregrina

Putin is indeed laughing.

They have got the measure of Johnson's Government. Pity they didn't add Gove and Rees-Mogg while they were about it.

You sound impressed with war criminal Putin for banning Johnson and others who of course had no plans on popping to Russia on a jaunt anytime soon anyway.