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Ukraine Invasion: Part 17

998 replies

MagicFox · 27/03/2022 07:23

A new place for us to convene, thread 17.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
TiddyTidTwo · 29/03/2022 17:25

Well this is excellent, pure propaganda, but hey what the hell

Oh now that's propaganda I can accept. Brought a smile to my face, did that.

CailleachGranda · 29/03/2022 17:26

@RedToothBrush

Well this is excellent, pure propaganda, but hey what the hell.

Bojan Pancevski @bopanc
The author of the now celebrated Ukrainian battle cry “Russian warship, go f… yourself” serviceman Roman Gribov, is awarded a medal for displaying the “strength of Ukrainian, Kozak spirit.” He was captured and then exchanged by the Russian invaders in a prisoner swap

twitter.com/bopanc/status/1508813217006501889
Video of him getting medal.

Loved that.
TiddyTidTwo · 29/03/2022 17:28

"Russia has decided to drastically reduce hostilities around the Kyiv and Chernigiv regions," Russian negotiators said.

Or clear their troops out to get Kyiv once and for all. I hope I'm wrong but I can't trust a word they say

PaperTyger · 29/03/2022 17:30

Just catching up.
Very convenient how Putin say's he will significantly drop attacks on Kiev as if it's and it's choice?
I don't think it is a choice he has too because he's on the back foot

Ijsbear · 29/03/2022 17:31

Not a natural leader but a past master in manipulation, misrepresentation and bringing strife.

About the nature of reality

most of us distinguish between truth and reality by establishing fixed truths about the material world which we use to balance ourselves (the concept of time vs telling the time accurately and using the knowledge of time as a tool to organise our day, agreeing on something based on shared beliefs in the underlying concepts). Once you start playing with those ideas and using a format or coda that is routed in scientific credibility, you are messing with peoples sense of the credible. Then, as your quote, suggests, nothing is credible and there is no authority, chaos, which leaves the path open for an omnipotent figure to fill

There is a balance here. In lands where the sense of time is less rigid and even where interpretation of visual stimuli is different to the west (www.bbc.com/future/article/20170306-the-astonishing-focus-of-namibias-nomads) ... there's still the common things that join us all. The need for food, the need for companionship and for happiness, the need to live without desperation. This sounds obvious but there is a very deep rooted truth in it. Hunger has a way of sharpening focus and concentrating reality.

(Personally I think a lot of the more esoteric philosophers needed to peel more potatoes and look after toddlers more. There is a groundedness in the every day tasks that gives some sense of reality. It's rarely the farmers who voluntarily go to war).

ScrollingLeaves · 29/03/2022 17:39

“TiddyTidTwo

Well this is excellent, pure propaganda, but hey what the hell

Oh now that's propaganda I can accept. Brought a smile to my face, did that.“

The soldier looked so serious and unassuming in his demeanour, as if he couldn’t understand why he should be getting the medal, and he looks so young too. I found it a bit heart wrenching.

That is a great slogan though.

AngelsForever · 29/03/2022 17:44

@Ijsbear

Thankyou for that, I haven't been able to look at this thread all day after my battering last night.

I am not a bot 🙄 and am absolutely not anti Ukraine I just don't think I got my thoughts/concern across very well!

Also thank you @RedToothBrush for your follow up

Shame people can be so nasty in what I thought was an open discussion.

EsmaCannonball · 29/03/2022 17:47

I wonder if the expulsion of diplomats is related to the massive leak of the names and details of FSB agents?

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 29/03/2022 17:48

Doesn't the real problem for Putin begin when the conscripts that don't get killed in Ukraine return home and tell it like it is? Or do we believe they're so brain washed they'll still swallow the party line regarding Natzification/liberation.

Does anyone buy the line of thought that the Russian poor simply don't care as much about their kids? That they'd rather have 7 million roubles than their son back? I find that difficult to believe. Also some one better let Sting know so he can rewrite that song.

ScrollingLeaves · 29/03/2022 17:48

Bojan Pancevski @bopanc*
The author of the now celebrated Ukrainian battle cry “Russian warship, go f… yourself” serviceman Roman Gribov, is awarded a medal for displaying the “strength of Ukrainian, Kozak spirit.” He was captured and then exchanged by the Russian invaders in a prisoner swap*

I looked up ‘Kozak’ and was interested to see it originally meant ‘free spirit’. That is apt I think.

Ijsbear · 29/03/2022 17:50

From Wiki, the Sino-Russian war:

Although Russia suffered a number of defeats, Emperor Nicholas II remained convinced that Russia could still win if it fought on; he chose to remain engaged in the war and await the outcomes of key naval battles. As hope of victory dissipated, he continued the war to preserve the dignity of Russia by averting a "humiliating peace". Russia ignored Japan's willingness early on to agree to an armistice and rejected the idea of bringing the dispute to the Permanent Court of Arbitration at the Hague. The war was eventually concluded with the Treaty of Portsmouth (5 September [O.S. 23 August] 1905), mediated by US President Theodore Roosevelt. The complete victory of the Japanese military surprised international observers and transformed the balance of power in both East Asia and Eastern Europe, resulting in Japan's emergence as a great power and a decline in the Russian Empire's prestige and influence in eastern Europe. Russia's incurrence of substantial casualties and losses for a cause that resulted in humiliating defeat contributed to a growing domestic unrest which culminated in the 1905 Russian Revolution, and severely damaged the prestige of the Russian autocracy. The war also marked the first victory of an Asian country against a Western power in modern times.[6]

It's not quite the same but there are distinct echos now of that long-ago war.

ScrollingLeaves · 29/03/2022 17:53

@DesdamonasHandkerchief
Does anyone buy the line of thought that the Russian poor simply don't care as much about their kids? That they'd rather have 7 million roubles than their son back? I find that difficult to believe.

I was wondering that too because I don’t think even the very poorest in the U.K. would swop their son for £60,000 or perhaps it would be equivalent to £120,000 given minimum wage equivalents. Actually, not for any amount probably.

TargusEasting · 29/03/2022 17:54

@ScrollingLeaves
I wondered if Cossack was derived from that word.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 29/03/2022 17:55

Thanks for the response scrollingleaves
And further ref Russian conscripts returning to Russia they'll also know exactly who was bombing the cities of Ukraine and who was targeting civilians and committing most of the war crimes. Surely the Russian propaganda isn't going to stand up to scrutiny.

Ijsbear · 29/03/2022 18:00

another fuel depot hit, from the Kyiv Independent:
18:37
external Russian missile strike destroys airport's fuel depot in Khmelnytskyi Oblast.

Mykola Melnychuk, mayor of Starokostiantyniv, said that there were no casualties as a result of the March 29 strike on the town’s airport but all strategic reserves of fuels and lubricants have been destroyed.

CailleachGranda · 29/03/2022 18:02

@ScrollingLeaves

“TiddyTidTwo

Well this is excellent, pure propaganda, but hey what the hell

Oh now that's propaganda I can accept. Brought a smile to my face, did that.“

The soldier looked so serious and unassuming in his demeanour, as if he couldn’t understand why he should be getting the medal, and he looks so young too. I found it a bit heart wrenching.

That is a great slogan though.

I'd get that t-shirt!
borntobequiet · 29/03/2022 18:14

Or clear their troops out to get Kyiv once and for all. I hope I'm wrong but I can't trust a word they say

That occurred to me too.

MagicFox · 29/03/2022 18:18

@borntobequiet

Or clear their troops out to get Kyiv once and for all. I hope I'm wrong but I can't trust a word they say

That occurred to me too.

Yep, this is what cynical me thinks too

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 29/03/2022 18:21

Well it seems there isn't any kind of consensus:

James Politi @JamesPoliti
"We have seen the Russians begin to draw away from Kyiv. But we have little confidence at this stage that it marks some significant shift or a meaningful retreat," a US official told us.

Phil Stewart @phildstewart
Western official says Russia seems to be playing for time with peace talks - Reuters

"Nothing that we have seen so far has demonstrated to us that President Putin and his colleagues are particularly serious about (talks), it's more of a tactical exercise in playing for time"

Jim Sciutto @jimsciutto
Breaking: Russia is beginning to withdraw some forces from around the Ukrainian capital Kyiv, in what the US assesses is a “major” strategy shift, two senior US officials tell me. US is already observing movements underway of Russian Battalion Tactical Groups (BTGs) 1/

2/ In the US view, this is not a short-term adjustment to regroup, but a longer-term move as Russia comes to grips with failure to advance in the north. Russian MOD said Tuesday it has decided to “drastically reduce hostilities” in the Kyiv and Chernihiv directions.

3/ US officials make clear the pullback is the direct result of Russia’s failure to make further gains around Kyiv, thwarting its plan to quickly encircle and take the capital. Moreover, Russian forces that withdraw from the north will likely deploy to other parts of Ukraine.

and then:

max seddon @maxseddon
Russian MP says everyone in Mariupol now supports Russia (after they completely destroyed the entire city) and vows to do the same with Kharkiv, Kyiv, Lviv, and Rivne. “After that they will support us. Forever!”

max seddon @maxseddon
Medinsky says Russia doesn’t want to “put Kyiv at any military risk” because the “people who make the decisions” about peace talks are there.

Quite a change from all the missile strikes, huge convoy, and special forces hit squads sent to take out Zelensky

MagicFox · 29/03/2022 18:23

Think this thread on how Putin will be thinking now is probably spot on: twitter.com/russiafiles/status/1508825844231413767?s=21&t=acPvypd1bJ58rdtAI0Qo6g

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 29/03/2022 18:26

This is really where I am:

Dr. Ian Garner @irgarner
Thread: How does this end? Even in the West, the wars we compare all others to are World Wars I and II: conflicts which had neat and clear ends. The former with an exact time and date we all know. The latter with the achievement of an obvious goal: total defeat for the enemy.

The problem for understanding how this war ends, and how we want this war to end, is that the World Wars are an exception when it comes to neat conclusions. Most wars drift into ongoing fighting, endless instability, messy and mucky conclusions.

As media consumers - as humans - we HATE not having an ending. Honestly ask yourself, how many times in the past five weeks have you seen some chink of light and got excited because of the neat ending it promised you? So now, when Russia is signalling peace, you look to the end.

It's natural. War is chaotic. It's disordering. It breaks apart physical space, but it also breaks apart understanding and our ability to describe. We project plots and endings onto it in order to bring it under control.

But Putin's Russia - indeed, post-Soviet Russia - has been engaged in mucky, endless conflicts for yrs. Transnistria, Abkhazia, Donbas all explained as "frozen" in our media shorthand, where "frozen" = no action, nothing happening. Not ended, maybe, but...in the intermission.

The likelihood of this war ending neatly with a peace signed - whatever that peace is - and the military and economic consequences simply ceasing is tiny. Russia won't waltz back into the international fold. Ukraine won't rebuild itself overnight. Fairy tales don't come true.

But already, within minutes of every tidbit of news, the Twitterati and media will try to impose familiar plots onto events - until, one day, the conflict will be declared "over" or "frozen." Then it can be parcelled up into myth, stories, easily digestible chunks.

We'll have processed the chaos into order. But reality won't be ordered, no matter what we say or desire. We have to keep pushing to break down simple narratives of beginnings, middles, and ends, and asking - what's really happening? What's really coming next?

A fudge.

Russia can't be seen to sign a peace deal. But that doesn't rule out a permenant 'ceasefire' though.

That puts Ukraine in a limbo situation where doing x, y or z to defend itself might be problematic and might hold up its redevelopment...

blueshoes · 29/03/2022 18:31

@TiddyTidTwo

"Russia has decided to drastically reduce hostilities around the Kyiv and Chernigiv regions," Russian negotiators said.

Or clear their troops out to get Kyiv once and for all. I hope I'm wrong but I can't trust a word they say

Sadly, agree. It is probably safer to assume Putin will do the opposite.
RedToothBrush · 29/03/2022 18:33

Jack Detsch @JackDetsch
JUST IN: British PM Boris Johnson tells US & European allies to judge Russia “by their actions” amid Russia opening door for direct Putin-Zelensky talks.

“Putin is twisting the knife in the open wound of Ukraine in an attempt to force the country and its allies to capitulate.”

Ukraine Invasion: Part 17
RedToothBrush · 29/03/2022 18:41

Kate Hunter @Kate_HunterDC
SCOOP from @AlbertoNardelli and @JenniferJJacobs : The Biden administration is considering providing Ukraine with an additional $500 million in aid and is pushing European allies to match the contribution

Jack Detsch @JackDetsch
JUST IN: Russia has committed 70 to 75 percent of its TOTAL military to the war in Ukraine, top U.S. general in Europe tells Congress.

Ukraine can "certainly succeed" in stalling Russia, said Gen. Tod Wolters.

No roll back here...

ScrollingLeaves · 29/03/2022 18:54

TargusEasting

@ScrollingLeaves
I wondered if Cossack was derived from that word

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossacks

I think so.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 17
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