Ukraine Invasion: Part 17

[MagicFox]

A new place for us to convene, thread 17.

BBC breaking:
Russia 'to reduce activity around Kyiv and Chernihiv'

Russia's deputy defence minister Alexander Fomin says Russia will "radically reduce" military activity outside Kyiv and Chernihiv - that's according to the news agency Tass.

More on this to come.

There HAS been a reported troop withdrawal in this area today and there was one from the Sumy area a couple of days ago.

Cyber-attack on one of Ukraine's telecoms networks yesterday. But they managed to keep military and critical national infrastructure going, and are now restoring the network.

Ukraine war: Major internet provider suffers cyber-attack
www.bbc.co.uk/news/60854881

@mpsw.

Ref legal advice- Interesting - many thanks.

Excellent map of Mariupol

eu.usatoday.com/in-depth/graphics/2022/03/29/mariupol-sustains-worst-russias-assault-ukraine/9454765002/
The devastation of Mariupol

Mariupol authorities estimate that Russian shelling and airstrikes have killed nearly 5,000 residents, including 210 children. Petro Andryushchenko, an adviser to the mayor, said last week that the number of casualties after the Russian shelling could approach 20,000 people. The United Nations reported evidence of mass graves in the city, one holding 200 bodies.

and

According to Mariupol Mayor Vadym Boychenko, about 80% of the residential buildings have been damaged, and the majority took a direct hit. More than 30% of those buildings are beyond repair. Fifty to 100 air bombs are dropped on the city daily, according to the city council. Only the port remains intact, the mayor said.

and

Boychenko said all inputs that provided electricity to the city were destroyed early on in the invasion along with heat-generating enterprises and stations. Ukraine's State Service for Special Communications and Information Protection reported that Mariupol remains cut from mobile communication.

The grain terminal was bombed. Volunteers trying to bring food are often shot by Russian forces, according to the mayor. The city council reported people have starved to death.

Many hospitals are damaged. The staff of one hospital works in only one building out of six, according to the city council.

and

Mariupol's two large metallurgical plants – Azovstal and the Illich Steel and Iron Works – employed about 40,000 people before the Russian invasion. The Azovstal plant was destroyed by Russian shelling, according to Deputy Mayor Sergiy Orlov.

The mobilisation of Z movement is an issue and is concerning. If you aren't understanding why he has to turn economic collaspe into a 'necessity' in the eyes of his public, you miss the point that its the only way he survives

I do understand. It's been the modus operandi for dictators for a very long time, possibly back to the ancient Greek tyrants.

Kamil's study is wide and deep ranging when you look at his universtiy studies and he's clearly looked into the history, distant and recent, of Russia in depth. But imo he has still moved from an in-depth and observational analysis to a less nuanced and more passionate position.

There is still a great deal to learn from him mind you! But I think there are other perspectives on how things are and how they might go. Ive the feeling he's majoring so much on the poverty of Russians and the Russian machine, the loss of subsistance-level knowledge, the deliberate impoverishment of the middle class and harnessing of Russian perspectives into his own desired direction that he's missing something, but I can't put my finger on exactly what. Something to do with missing a resourcefulness and stoicity that exists within the Russian character.

I looked up 7 million ruples ( what Putin will pay families for dead soldiers).That is about £60,000 and their minimum wage is about £5 p.h so low by our standards. For the poorest families that would probably seem a lot.

From Telegraph:
Russia has said that it will "drastically reduce hostilities" around Kyiv andwants to "de-escalate" the conflict in Ukraine.

The comments were an apparent offer to "increasetrust" between Russia and Ukraine at the end of the latest round of peace talks in Istanbul.

"Russia has decided to drastically reduce hostilities around the Kyiv and Chernigiv regions," Russian negotiators said.
Vladimir Medinsky, Russia's chief negotiator, then said that he also wants to set up a face-to-face meeting between Vladimir Putin and Ukrainian president Vlodymyr Zelensky.

"We are taking these two steps to de-escalate the conflict," he said.

I'll believe it when I see it. Not sure what trust can exist when one country invades another and murders its citizens

@PerkingFaintly

On the role of perpetual, blatant lying in creating totalitarian states, this was studied after WW2 by Hannah Arendt, particularly looking at the regimes of Hitler and Stalin.

www.openculture.com/2017/01/hannah-arendt-explains-how-propaganda-uses-lies-to-erode-all-truth-morality.html

the mechanism of propaganda in fostering “a curiously varying mixture of gullibility and cynicism with which each member… is expected to react to the changing lying statements of the leaders.” So she wrote in her 1951 Origins of Totalitarianism, going on to elaborate that this “mixture of gullibility and cynicism… is prevalent in all ranks of totalitarian movements”:

[Arendt says] "In an ever-changing, incomprehensible world the masses had reached the point where they would, at the same time, believe everything and nothing, think that everything was possible and nothing was true… The totalitarian mass leaders based their propaganda on the correct psychological assumption that, under such conditions, one could make people believe the most fantastic statements one day, and trust that if the next day they were given irrefutable proof of their falsehood, they would take refuge in cynicism; instead of deserting the leaders who had lied to them, they would protest that they had known all along that the statement was a lie and would admire the leaders for their superior tactical cleverness."

Arendt and others recognized, writes Levy, that “being made to repeat an obvious lie makes it clear that you’re powerless.” She also recognized the function of an avalanche of lies to render a populace powerless to resist, the phenomenon we now refer to as "gaslighting”:

[Arendt says] "The result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth and truth be defamed as a lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world—and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end—is being destroyed."

The epistemological ground thus pulled out from under them, most would depend on whatever the leader said, no matter its relation to truth.

Well this is depressingly true. The DC just listened to Animal Farm on audiobook in the car this week. It’s all there.

@RedToothBrush thanks again for your informative insights.

Now when the poles (and their oil and gas) become habitable due to climate change let’s watch as Canada, Europe, Russia and the US position themselves to take chunks of this, as yet unowned, territory. Should be fun for our children/grandchildren!

@ScrollingLeaves

I looked up 7 million ruples ( what Putin will pay families for dead soldiers).That is about £60,000 and their minimum wage is about £5 p.h so low by our standards. For the poorest families that would probably seem a lot.

During Vietnam the US paid $10,000 per dead soldier. As lot of African-Americans saw that as the only way to help their families.

During Vietnam the US paid $10,000 per dead soldier. As lot of African-Americans saw that as the only way to help their families.

That was my immediate thought too. And I’ve spoken to at least one (white) person who fought in Vietnam who told me that his relationship with his family was forever destroyed by the fact that he realised that on one level they resented the fact that he didn’t die there.

@borntobequiet

During Vietnam the US paid $10,000 per dead soldier. As lot of African-Americans saw that as the only way to help their families.

That was my immediate thought too. And I’ve spoken to at least one (white) person who fought in Vietnam who told me that his relationship with his family was forever destroyed by the fact that he realised that on one level they resented the fact that he didn’t die there.

Generally in any army, the officers will sound like Boris, and the soldiers like Danny Dyer (who I am imagining would be happy for me to call him the voice of the infantryman).

That pretty much sums up the army and war since whenever, really. The poor made to fight to keep the rich, rich.

@PerkingFaintly

[Arendt says] "The result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth and truth be defamed as a lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world—and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end—is being destroyed."

Does she mean material reality? I think this shift to the virtual facilitates this.

“SenoraMiasma

@PerkingFaintly

[Arendt says] "The result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth and truth be defamed as a lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world—and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end—is being destroyed."

“Does she mean material reality? I think this shift to the virtual facilitates this.“

Yes, @SenoraMiasma you are probably right.
I also gather from other threads that this might also have come about through Post Modern thinking taken to extremes and applied randomly to all aspects of life : that everything is just a ‘frame’ coming from society, and any frame can be dismantled - there are no ‘facts’. (I am no philosopher so forgive me if I got that wrong.)

Thank you for posting that @PerkingFaintly
I have copied it to keep because I think it is such an accurate description of what could apply to various current issues.

Thank you, all you people on this thread. I have been learning a lot from you.

sorry if this has been posted but Ukraine's 2nd biggest internet provider was attacked, but has weathered it

www.bbc.com/news/60854881

Well this is excellent, pure propaganda, but hey what the hell.

Bojan Pancevski @bopanc
The author of the now celebrated Ukrainian battle cry “Russian warship, go f… yourself” serviceman Roman Gribov, is awarded a medal for displaying the “strength of Ukrainian, Kozak spirit.” He was captured and then exchanged by the Russian invaders in a prisoner swap

twitter.com/bopanc/status/1508813217006501889
Video of him getting medal.

Bno news @bnonews
BREAKING: Belgium, Netherlands, Ireland, and the Czech Republic expel 43 Russian diplomats

Interfax apparently reporting that the accounts of the Polish embassy in moscow have been frozen.

Olexsandra Matiivchuk @avalaina
Natalia Panchenko: This is how the Russian Embassy in Poland looks like today. Polish civic activists believe that it has no place in Poland.

Nexta @nexta_tv
#Russia is expelling a total of 10 diplomats from #Lithuania, #Latvia and #Estonia in response to the expulsion of #Russian diplomats from the #Baltic states.

Foucault and critical theory, I think too (Michel Foucault not scientist Foucault) plus Derrida’s work on deconstruction and language.

Talking of Foucault, I remember reading Eco’s Foucault’s Pendulum at university (and struggling massively with it) but one thing that stood out was his early internet machine ‘abalfalia’ and his work (heavily influenced by his idol, Joyce) on language/semiotics. He also wrote a short book called Misreadings based on this idea, worth reading. Foucault's Pendulum demonstrate’s the Earth's rotation through scientific methods rather than the old astronomical tools (and I guess human error). It proves that the Earth’s rotational field changes over time and as such there is no constant in which to base reality as it is shifting. This was something that the early Church recognised (constant state of flux) and that Latin accommodated but the transfer of esoteric ideas to Germanic and then English I think altered some of the subleties so that suggestions became seen as concrete realities.

It is this shift in a sense of fixed realities in language we are seeing all across the board (ring any bells) as an attempt to extricate reality ( in the lived sense of experiencing the world) from the confines of a man made construct of ‘perceived’ reality that has pushed these ideas forward but there does seem to me an ontological issue that has yet be recognised: that of the metaphysical and the applied. I’ve heard Rory Stewart touch on this and I think it is an ontological issue but it has been packaged to and delivered as a set of answers and positions rather than a set of questions and experiences.

I don’t know if that sheds any light of the material vs virtual arguments that have been going on but I can give an example.

There is a group at a London university who use digital tools to extrapolate from real events what they think is happening. So if civil war breaks out somewhere, satellite imagery can be used to view villages that are ransacked and torched, for example. Obviously the army have this information. This group, an ‘arts’ group piece together data from public sources to create a narrative of what they believe happened.

They’ve caused some controversy of late and it is a strange one to work out but I guess they base their ideas on the belief that the capitalist world has hijacked norms and behaviours so therefore they need to reset the idea of reality.

Yes, I do have this stuff in my head. No, it doesn’t make sense to me and I wish I didn’t see these things but somehow I do and no, I may not be right about any of it🙂

@RedToothBrush

Well this is excellent, pure propaganda, but hey what the hell.

Bojan Pancevski @bopanc
The author of the now celebrated Ukrainian battle cry “Russian warship, go f… yourself” serviceman Roman Gribov, is awarded a medal for displaying the “strength of Ukrainian, Kozak spirit.” He was captured and then exchanged by the Russian invaders in a prisoner swap

twitter.com/bopanc/status/1508813217006501889
Video of him getting medal.

What a difference to the other video of the Russian soldiers getting medals.

Also (stick with me), I looked into a masters in English at a university in Italy years ago. It looked at the Age of Enlightenment and was heavily focused on the ‘material’ side of literature (history of the book, lots about leaflets, ephemera, etc) but it was the literature of ideas as opposed to the traditions that had come before where the only acceptable ideas were the ones that aligned with material reality. So, astronomy, occult, spiritualism shaped ideas. It was a bit strange to me and I didn’t do the course but I remember thinking that if that is where we are heading, we are in trouble as most of us distinguish between truth and reality by establishing fixed truths about the material world which we use to balance ourselves (the concept of time vs telling the time accurately and using the knowledge of time as a tool to organise our day, agreeing on something based on shared beliefs in the underlying concepts). Once you start playing with those ideas and using a format or coda that is routed in scientific credibility, you are messing with peoples sense of the credible. Then, as your quote, suggests, nothing is credible and there is no authority, chaos, which leaves the path open for an omnipotent figure to fill. We saw this historically in Germany in the way the Nazis were able to get people on board by offering solutions to problems they created (road building, jobs, strong identity, direction, power).

I hate to say this but I also think it is the reason behind the anti religious rhetoric that has escalated in the last 20 years. Religions at their core, are meant to uphold material reality, ironically. At their core, they are meant to reflect reality as it is and religious practice is meant to be a set of tools to manage that reality. But as we know, that hasn’t always happened.

What a difference to the other video of the Russian soldiers getting medals.

That was the most depressing sight. A load of 21 year olds in some grim hospital, all with a freshly amputated leg.

In a way this makes me believe slightly more that they will reduce military activity in those areas. Not sure why but the insistence that this isn’t a ceasefire feels to me like Russia defending its action (to who god only know) in reducing activity.

Isn't a search for the answer as to whether your "reality" is the same as mine one of the cornerstones of (Western) philosophy ?

I find it fascinating how much essential TV never gets re-shown, while you can almost set your watch by Dads Army repeats.

James Burke (possibly one of sciences most accomplished communicators for those of us that remember that tracking shot) was there 45 years ago.

Still well worth a watch as it underscores that there is no such thing as "reality". Let alone your reality. Notice the arrogance of truth.

There is so much I have to agree with you here on @RedToothBrush

What he describes in the above thread has echoes of criticism of the USA's economy being dependent on its military might and the idea that he has to start wars to distract from domestic issues. Its, therefore, not a uniquely Russian idea.

Neither is oligarchy. Why should it be? After all America is the land of opportunity and entrepreneurism. The US recovered costs in 1991 when defending Saudi Arabia from an invasion by Iraq. The 2003 invasion of Iraq was the $3 trillion war. The latter half was managed by private contractors and will be paid for - with interest. There will be a banker in BVI or Panama with two client healthy bank balances. One will belong to a Russian and the other to an American. [Indirectly, we never hear much about Kuwait since 1991....].

The problem is that Putin is demonstrating a classic descent into totalitarianism which relies on being inward looking and seeing everyone outside as a threat: its Putin projecting his own bunker mentality onto the population. Putin thinks he is the enbodyment of Russia.

This is why I said on previous threads we have no reason to fear nuclear annihilation. Russia is everything. It is sacred, like Jerusalem or the Kaaba.

The mobilisation of Z movement is an issue and is concerning. If you aren't understanding why he has to turn economic collaspe into a 'necessity' in the eyes of his public, you miss the point that its the only way he survives. Especially given how his Ukraine operation has gone tits up on its plans.

A street-fighter. Not a natural leader. Perfect storm.