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Ukraine Invasion: Part 17

998 replies

MagicFox · 27/03/2022 07:23

A new place for us to convene, thread 17.

OP posts:
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33
RedToothBrush · 28/03/2022 23:24

Shaun Walker @shaunwalker7
Also: Abramovich has met with both Zelenskiy and Putin personally this month, and is in Istanbul now to join the negotiations there tomorrow

Oooo fun. Can someone report on whether he eats chocolate or drinks water or brings his own thermas flask instead please?

blueshoes · 28/03/2022 23:24

Yes it's all very fishy to me. This is awful for the Ukrainian people and the country but I have come to the conclusion I can't trust any of the governments at all anymore. What a load of madness...dont no what to believe anymore

If you expect the government of a country that is fighting for its freedom and the life of its civilians to not engage in some form of propaganda, you are being very naive. Enjoy your armchair and central heating.

AngelsForever · 28/03/2022 23:27

@Redtoothbrush

I've been a bit of a lurker here and have really liked your insightful posts and your are 1000% more knowledgeable than me!
I was wondering what your thoughts are of propaganda from the media (our media)...the Russians as we have seen are getting it but do you feel we (Europe and the the west) maybe lied to and goaded also? Please don't get me wrong putin is a wart that needs eradicating! I just have a gut feeling they are ramming things down our throat without us knowing the whole story and scaring the hell out of us!

CailleachGranda · 28/03/2022 23:28

I just watched Newsnight and there was a piece about Boris Nemstov's murder and Navalny's attempted murder and incarceration

How anyone can put the Ukrainians fighting for their right to live life as they want on a par with the horror that is Russia is beyond me

AngelsForever · 28/03/2022 23:30

@blueshoes

Yes it's all very fishy to me. This is awful for the Ukrainian people and the country but I have come to the conclusion I can't trust any of the governments at all anymore. What a load of madness...dont no what to believe anymore

If you expect the government of a country that is fighting for its freedom and the life of its civilians to not engage in some form of propaganda, you are being very naive. Enjoy your armchair and central heating.

That is not what I am saying at all...I think we need to look outside the box to figure out what's going on here. There's lots of lies being spread all over

The poor victims in this, its just absolutely horrid and disgusting, war is disgusting! No sane person wants this but these are powerful people, what the hell are they thinking?

No need to be rude hunnie x

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2022 23:32

I just feel their statistics (numbers of Russians dead/Russian weaponry destroyed/generals killed vs numbers of Ukrainian military killed, children killed, civilians killed) and some of their accounts of events are not accurate

I know. You go walk around Mariupol and inspect every building for unburied bodies. You can dig under the rubble with your bare hands amongst potentially unexploded devices or unstable walls and ceilings. Whilst under fire.

The idea that you can have a nice neat head count for civilians is beyond naive. There is an estimate of 5000 being used today for Mariupol from the Ukrainians. What more do you want? A plot of where they are all buried?

After the Bosnia war, bodies were being dug up for years. They are still trying to identify many now. Some remain unfound.

There are dead missing from WWI and WWII who are occasionally found. My step-grandmother was still looking for her father over 50 years after the war. He died on the Eastern Front. She never found him before she died. I wonder if he will ever be found - technically though not a blood relation we are next of kin.

Totally unrealistic expectations.

To the point that this comment has actually quite annoyed me tbh.

blueshoes · 28/03/2022 23:33

That is not what I am saying at all...I think we need to look outside the box to figure out what's going on here. There's lots of lies being spread all over

The poor victims in this, its just absolutely horrid and disgusting, war is disgusting! No sane person wants this but these are powerful people, what the hell are they thinking?

No need to be rude hunnie x

Ok, then. hmmm

CailleachGranda · 28/03/2022 23:34

What is it you're saying AngelsForever?

I don't get your point. What box should we look outside of?

Saltedeggplant · 28/03/2022 23:35

.I think we need to look outside the box to figure out what's going on here.
Well what do you think is going on that isn't being reported?

MMBaranova · 28/03/2022 23:37

The poisoning story is confusing, but it is conceivable that Abramovich was seeded with something that it was hoped would have affected others that the Russian side could not reach. Maybe. All a bit odd and time will no doubt tell.

AngelsForever · 28/03/2022 23:38

Sorry guys I don't mean to offend anyone.

What happening is horrible.

I have done my bit and will continue to help the poor people in Ukraine.

I want this to end like everyone else.

I thought this was a place to discuss things freely with other people that are concerned about this??

LuluBlakey1 · 28/03/2022 23:41

@CailleachGranda I only heard of Azov mid-week last week and read about them. I have just looked up Wagner to see what it is.

It is all very complex and this aspect of it is certainly not high profile in the mainstream news but I wonder if it explains some of Europe and the US's unwillingness to do more than they are doing.

The pictures and accounts of what is happening in Ukraine are terrible. I just have a feeling there is a great deal we don't know- that is deliberately being kept out of the Press for whatever reason.

I wonder how quickly and where right-wing neo-nazi groups are growing in Europe in the last few years. The political conditions are right for their growth so it would be no surprise but horrific.

Snorkelface · 28/03/2022 23:42

Corruption? Ukraine has been plagued by corruption, economic instability, war and political upheaval since it broke away from Russia. The country has been constantly battling to move forwards and maintain distance from Russian influence ever since. It still is.

EsmaCannonball · 28/03/2022 23:42

I don't think western media is goading us at all. I think, if anything, they are playing things down and priming us to accept concessions to be pushed on Ukraine as the price for 'peace at any cost' because politicians and vested interested are desperate to get back to 'business as usual.' I'm really getting a sense of all-round fatigue from some countries, who really would have preferred Ukraine to have fallen without a fight in a couple of days so they could have tutted a bit at Russia but then be spared dealing with any of this.

CailleachGranda · 28/03/2022 23:42

@AngelsForever

Sorry guys I don't mean to offend anyone.

What happening is horrible.

I have done my bit and will continue to help the poor people in Ukraine.

I want this to end like everyone else.

I thought this was a place to discuss things freely with other people that are concerned about this??

I'm not offended (although if you'd called me hun mine I would have been)

I wanted to know what you meant about outside the box

What box? What justification is there for putin and his murdering troops? What do you think we're being sold?

blueshoes · 28/03/2022 23:48

The pictures and accounts of what is happening in Ukraine are terrible. I just have a feeling there is a great deal we don't know- that is deliberately being kept out of the Press for whatever reason.

What do you mean?

What is being kept out of the press that is worse than the atrocities committed by Russia against civilians in Ukraine right now.

Please be specific as opposed to casting aspersions with no source or basis.

AngelsForever · 28/03/2022 23:49

@CailleachGranda

Sorry long day today I think I'm wound a bit tight haha!

No I just mean outside the box as to why this has started...I didn't mean about the actual destruction and death, more so in why this all started. I have come across lots of things for instance America poking the bear if you like and also the crazy hunter Biden laptop situation plus today this poisoning,that's not a poisoning, that they kept quiet for nearly a month...just saying I feel we're being drip fed

LuluBlakey1 · 28/03/2022 23:50

@RedToothBrush

I just feel their statistics (numbers of Russians dead/Russian weaponry destroyed/generals killed vs numbers of Ukrainian military killed, children killed, civilians killed) and some of their accounts of events are not accurate

I know. You go walk around Mariupol and inspect every building for unburied bodies. You can dig under the rubble with your bare hands amongst potentially unexploded devices or unstable walls and ceilings. Whilst under fire.

The idea that you can have a nice neat head count for civilians is beyond naive. There is an estimate of 5000 being used today for Mariupol from the Ukrainians. What more do you want? A plot of where they are all buried?

After the Bosnia war, bodies were being dug up for years. They are still trying to identify many now. Some remain unfound.

There are dead missing from WWI and WWII who are occasionally found. My step-grandmother was still looking for her father over 50 years after the war. He died on the Eastern Front. She never found him before she died. I wonder if he will ever be found - technically though not a blood relation we are next of kin.

Totally unrealistic expectations.

To the point that this comment has actually quite annoyed me tbh.

I didn't mean that. It is very hard to phrase it sensitively. I understand what you say and you are right. The same thing happened to my grandma and two of my great aunts who lost husbands in the 1WW and 2WW and they were never found. I am saying at the beginning this was painted by the media in a very Russia bad, Ukraine good way. I am not convinced now that is entirely true. Russia's actions must be condemned- they are terrible but I am less convinced about what has been happening in Ukraine before the war than I was. I suspect it has been much more corrupt and extreme in parts - and perhaps that is part of moving away from Putin's Russia towards more democratic processes but I think we have much more to know yet (or I do). It is a very different war, even to the last wars in Iran and Afghanistan.
CailleachGranda · 28/03/2022 23:52

[quote AngelsForever]@CailleachGranda

Sorry long day today I think I'm wound a bit tight haha!

No I just mean outside the box as to why this has started...I didn't mean about the actual destruction and death, more so in why this all started. I have come across lots of things for instance America poking the bear if you like and also the crazy hunter Biden laptop situation plus today this poisoning,that's not a poisoning, that they kept quiet for nearly a month...just saying I feel we're being drip fed

[/quote]
Poking the bear?

So, you're a fan of appeasement then

Do you not think Ukraine should be allowed to govern itself as it sees fit?

LuluBlakey1 · 28/03/2022 23:52

@blueshoes

The pictures and accounts of what is happening in Ukraine are terrible. I just have a feeling there is a great deal we don't know- that is deliberately being kept out of the Press for whatever reason.

What do you mean?

What is being kept out of the press that is worse than the atrocities committed by Russia against civilians in Ukraine right now.

Please be specific as opposed to casting aspersions with no source or basis.

I don't know because I think we are being presented with a 'view' . If I knew I would say.
AngelsForever · 28/03/2022 23:53

@LuluBlakey1

You have a much better way with words than me!!!

shreddednips · 28/03/2022 23:55

[quote AngelsForever]@Redtoothbrush

I've been a bit of a lurker here and have really liked your insightful posts and your are 1000% more knowledgeable than me!
I was wondering what your thoughts are of propaganda from the media (our media)...the Russians as we have seen are getting it but do you feel we (Europe and the the west) maybe lied to and goaded also? Please don't get me wrong putin is a wart that needs eradicating! I just have a gut feeling they are ramming things down our throat without us knowing the whole story and scaring the hell out of us![/quote]
I don't understand this at all. To what ends would the western media be goading the public? Goading us to do what? There's no need to 'spin' what's happening to make it look worse, Russia has invaded a sovereign nation, flattened cities and indiscriminately killed civilians. Ukraine hasn't invaded anyone, it's defending its own soil and people. What is it in the western press that you feel is misleading or inaccurate? The information coming from Ukraine might be unclear, but that's not the same as it being deliberately misleading. It's bound to be unclear given what they're contending with.

CailleachGranda · 28/03/2022 23:56

The recent posters with their victim blaming

Ukraine is not part of Russia. Putin is not president of Ukraine. It's. It up to Putin what the Ukrainians do, what unions they join or who they ally with.

All this "I'm not saying Russia is right but..." is quite sickening

LuluBlakey1 · 28/03/2022 23:56

I feel as if I have expressed a view, asked a question and yet again the MN bullies are out pouncing and picking and ganging up - the velociraptor gang.

I stand by what I have said but I can't be bothered to be picked on by the MN bullies so I'm off to bed

Night night. 🙂

blueshoes · 28/03/2022 23:56

AngelsForever: No I just mean outside the box as to why this has started...I didn't mean about the actual destruction and death, more so in why this all started. I have come across lots of things for instance America poking the bear if you like and also the crazy hunter Biden laptop situation plus today this poisoning,that's not a poisoning, that they kept quiet for nearly a month...just saying I feel we're being drip fed

We are not being drip fed. This is not conspiracy by the press or Ukraine or UK government. I would suggest considering reliability of your sources - of which there is a plethora - and making up your own mind.

I find this thread very useful for signposting to more reliable news sources and some less so but at least it has been looked over by knowledgeable posters who I assume are subject matter experts of one stripe or another and used to sifting out misinformation or gaps in information