“Getting ANY adult dog breed is strongly NOT recommended”

[tallulahtoo78]

From a dog expert interview on LBC discussing the utterly awful, tragic death of the 17 month old little girl.

Out of interest
When you were childminding and you got the puppy - did any parents withdraw their child?
I would have done

I'm not the poster you were responding to, but I was a CM who had a dog before I started childminding. We got him as a puppy when my own children were small.

Of course it was made absolutely clear the dog was part of the setting and parents are free to choose on that basis.

I suppose if you got a puppy after you'd started childminding you'd be sensible to check if parents would mind, and I wouldn't be surprised if some did.
I think managing a new puppy around a busy childminding business would be difficult unless there was another adult in the house too.

To say no one should adopt an adult dog is ridiculous. If I ever manage to convince DH we should have a dog I don't want a puppy. They're cute but their needs are too much like babies for my liking!

We only ever had rescue dogs at home and because they came from reputable rescues they were all fine. We were home checked and the dog was suitable for our situation. A lot of problems arise when idiots buy dogs from Gumtree etc.

@Honeyroar

While it’s awful that this happened, I strongly disagree with the “expert”. I’ve had adult rescue dogs all my life. I think you’re less likely to have problems with a dog from a good rescue than you are a pup from a bad/greedy breeder personally. You hear it all the time.. “I couldn’t find a rescue that would let me have a dog because my children were young, so I bought a puppy..”

Have you had fairly ordinary, friendly breeds though, or Staffies?

I'm sure people who've rescued Golden Retrievers - who have probably come from fairly normal homes - don't have the experience of people who've adopted Staffies, who've probably come from absolutely awful homes. Here they're bred for fighting then just left on the streets as strays. They're wounded. Their ears are cut. They're unrehomable, but the shelters still try.

Like my family members have rescued black labradors from a charity that takes them in after their elderly owners die. They're not abused, damaged dogs and they therefore insist that their rescue experiences are utterly wonderful, but a nice Labrador from a nice home isn't the same as a Staffie found half-dead in a bin because some scumbag dumped his losing fighting dog.

@IncompleteSenten

What a tragedy.

What's needed is real education about dog ownership. People often don't have a clue how to manage a dog or the safety issues and it's so important. Even things like not leaving a child and a dog alone for any period no matter how short. Making sure the child doesn't grab at or poke the dog and certainly not lie down on the dog.

There is so much that can be done to help people understand the dos and don'ts of dog ownership.

And children need to learn how to behave around dogs, too.

To the disappointment of almost the entire family, I stopped taking my last dog when visiting ILs if I knew that a certain wing of the family would be there. Their kids wouldn't take any notice of anyone and their parents wouldn't control them. I got sick and tired of having to put the dog in the car (if it was a cool day) or leave early (if it wasn't), because they would not even try and make their 2 youngest leave the dog alone.

She would happily run around and play with them all, but when she was knackered and wanted to sleep they would pester her, prod her and disturb her. She used to go under chairs and get right into corners in an attempt to get away from them, but the 3YO would wriggle under furniture, poking and prodding, and wouldn't give the dog a moment's peace. The parents wouldn't do anything to stop the child, even when asked, and I found the whole thing too bloody stressful for words. I was constantly on edge, for fear she might snap, and she was a very good-tempered dog.

It hasn't been stated anywhere that the dog was a rescue, just that it was 'bought' and 'recently acquired'. It could have been bought from a rescue, a pub carpark, Gumtree or a reputable breeder or from someone off loading it because it had behavioural issues. The police are trying to track down the dog's previous owners which wouldn't necessarily be possible if it was a rescue. The police are trying to establish if it was a banned breed. If it was a rehomed rescue it is highly unlikely to be on the banned breed list or to have been rehomed to a family with a young child. When it comes to breeds The Dangerous Dog Act is also deeply flawed and has been under constant criticism since it came into force. Any dog has the potential to do harm, including the fluffiest and smallest of breeds. The Act basically determines a dog's fate on how it looks rather than how it behaves. A staffy (not on the banned list) labrador cross can look almost identical to a pit bull and risks being destroyed on that basis. As the family had only had the dog for a week the dog would still have been adapting to its new surroundings so more likely to have acted out of character, whatever its origins or type, especially if it wasn't used to young children.

@Whaleandsnail6

What a sad, sad story. But I don't agree with the statement that no adult dog should be rescued. I do think they should be rescued through rehoming kennels though and not private sales.

We have adopted 2 adult greyhounds in our lifetime. The first was 4 years old and the second 2 years old. We had children and worked with the breed specific rescue to ensure that the dog was right for us and we were the right home, with knowledge and both times, it has worked out well and we have had safe, happy family pets.

In the case of greyhounds, if they weren't adopted as adult dogs, many would never have the opportunity to live in a home... I can't remember the exact statistic but a few thousand retire from racing every year, that without adoption would either be put to sleep or end their lives in kennels.

I absolutely couldn’t agree more about the importance of older dogs being available for adoption…BUT there is absolutely a very specific time and place for them to be adopted…ideally one with well-experienced dog owners who do not have young children. I personally have 4 dogs myself, two of which were adopted as adults BUT I do not have children and I am a very well seasoned dog owner, primarily rescues. That said, a child under the age of 3 should always be constantly supervised around ALL dogs…even if they have “grown up” together. Now, to leave a child under the age of 2, alone with a newly rescued dog is beyond comprehension to me. Add the fact that the dogs history was unknown? I’m sorry but I personally think that straddles the line of child neglect. Please read further before becoming outraged…

Regardless of a dogs general temperament, their age or their past…it still takes them an average of 2 months to adjust and be comfortable in a new home. This is typically even longer for adult dogs being rehomed and that is only further compounded if they have had a rough past. The most important thing for adopters to do is to provide them a calm environment, such as their own personal kennel in a quiet room, etc.
That said…imagine leaving a new dog alone with a toddler?!? I love kids but a child her age is typically just beginning to walk or have begun exploring the new freedom that comes along with it. Both of which are perceived by ANY and ALL dogs as erratic behavior which typically makes them very nervous. Especially ones which not been around children much, If at all. Then throw in the innocent tail pulling etc…which is why it is absolutely imperative there is always adult supervision.

This could have happened with any dog, even if they are a long time family member. But in this case, it was almost inevitable, at least to some extent…as it would be for any new dog, regardless of background.

This whole tragedy is unfortunate on every level…I hate that an innocent child had to die bc of her parents ignorance and the same goes for the poor dog who also didn’t deserve to be put down. This was neither of their faults.
So please encourage anyone you know who may find themselves adopting an older dog or adding any dog to a home with a small child, to PLEASE EDUCATE THEMSELVES.

@DogInATent

There may be missing deaths but the recorded data shows a particular type of breeds are involved time and again.....

The data is taken from the ONS data for Egland and Wales an doesn't quite match since the link is deaths for the UK as a whole.

My point stands though, the same old same old breeds are listed for the attacks. The majority of deaths from dog attacks have the breeds listed and not as you say unknown.

@Agrudge Agree 100%. Its not the dogs, its the owners and until something is done about that it will go on forever.

BUT there is absolutely a very specific time and place for them to be adopted…ideally one with well-experienced dog owners who do not have young children.

But where does that leave people like me? I haven't had a dog since I lived at home so I doubt I'd be classed as experienced but I have no children and don't want a puppy. There has to be some give and take.

And children need to learn how to behave around dogs, too.

I completely agree with this. I remember walking one of our dogs when I lived at home and some kid ran up to her, smacked her on the nose and shouted 'doggie'. My dog was so startled that she snapped at the kid. Luckily she was on a lead and she didn't get him but if she had no doubt most people would have blamed her. The kid's mother actually apologised to me and said it was his own fault.

Neighbours have said it was a Staffie or bulldog.

Those two dogs look completely different. I think a lot of people are unaware of what a purebred staffy looks like - they tend to be quite small - instead confusing them with crosses and pitbull types which can be much larger. I suspect the owners didn’t know much about what it was either way.

[quote EdithRea]@steppemum My local shelter is stocked with nothing but abandoned Staffies. "Found wounded, but all healed now!" - yes, it's an abandoned fighting dog, congratulations, now it can go maul someone else's dog. "Stray Staffie, can't be rehomed with children, must be muzzled, cannot be with other dogs..." I mean, really, what life even is it for the dog?

And these shelters are encouraging people to view a bunch of abused, traumatised, battle-scarred Staffies that have been bred for fighting then kicked out by repulsive owners as possible family pets with their endless 'adopt don't shop' mantra.

I don't want an abused Staffie that "growls at everyone", nor a Jack Russell that "hasn't walked on the floor since 2006, loves his lap cuddles but gets a bit snippy!" Sometimes a damaged dog is just too damaged.[/quote]
really not sure why that is aimed at me.

I said clearly that many of the dogs sitting in rescues should actually be put down.
And that I think rescues are irresponsible bringing over dogs to be rehomed directly into homes with no proper assessment.

We adopted 3 adult dogs where we do know their history, eg one is a larger mixed breed (golden retriever type) which was from an older couple who had him as a puppy but found him too big and bouncy and couldn't walk him/train him because of that. He was well looked after, not abused, but in need of a new home who could manage him. That is a win-win situation.

I lost track of the number of rescues I read about that said - need a single adult female household in rural area, experienced dog owner, and can only be walked on a lead. Why are those dogs up for rehoming at all?

Looking at the list of fatalities it did strike me how few there are (contrast with say car accidents), and also many of the descriptions described ‘dog being let out of the pen’ type of scenarios. Dogs like people need to have care taken over their mental health. If you were kept in a small pen and used just as a weapon then it’s highly likely that mental disturbance would occur.

The type of people who don’t have dogs for the right reason are disproportionately the people where this happens to. I’m not saying there isn’t the occasional rogue dog, or that certain breeds aren’t more likely to be aggressive but owners do have to be responsible. Train a dog to be a weapon and it’s much more likely it will be dangerous.

I have two Labradors, both raised from puppies, both are very happy and well adjusted. I’ve been a lifelong dog owner and can tell even from the positioning of their ears what they’re up to. Body language understanding is really important. I’ve been on YouTube to show both of my kids what an upset and aggressive dog looks like so they can identify it (neither of my dogs ever display that emotion, so YouTube it had to be) and act accordingly. The kids were always taught to respect and care for the dogs, which they do - they love them and want to be kind. But I have seen small children at times poking or hitting pets with no restraint from the parents, including one scenario when a staffy puppy was putting up with all of that at a formative age. Talk about teaching a dog that children are to be feared (fear is behind much dog aggression).

Breed is also highly important, the more prey drive the dog has the more I’d be worried, and that includes the highly fashionable dogs like daschunds and small terriers. See them kill rats and you’ll see what they’re capable of, so those who equate small with safe just aren’t right.

@DogInATent

But you can never breed out the wild completely. *@AskItaliano* - true, you can see it in some of the human children in the park too.

Yep. We are animals. We have many features from our animalness still present.

And i wouldnt take kindly to any to suggestion that we teach our children how to not get attacked by dogs.

Lets also ask our girls to stop getting assaulted and raped too. And to dress appropriately!

@lecreusetpeppermill

And i wouldnt take kindly to any to suggestion that we teach our children how to not get attacked by dogs.

Lets also ask our girls to stop getting assaulted and raped too. And to dress appropriately!

FFS in my example a kid hit my dog on the nose, a very sensitive area. Are you saying kids shouldn't be taught to respect dogs?

I disagree. But I think having a dog and a very young child is unwise. I waited til mine were both school age.
In my own childhood we only ever adopted adult rescues. We were all primary aged for the first dog, and late teens for the last. One was a mutt, probably part Airedale, one was a golden retriever and last was a German shepherd. All lovely family dogs. I adopted a chow chow/German shepherd cross who was lovely as well.
Common sense, a good rescue centre who assesses the dog and I see no reason why not.

I disagree with the 'expert' - what is a 'dog expert' exactly? We rescued two adult dogs when our ds was 2. They were from a family with children and were given to the rescue as the family didn't have the time for them due to children's SEN. We travelled 120 miles to get them and they were absolutely fantastic, a million times easier than getting a puppy, I'd only ever get rescue adult dogs.

That said I'd never rescue a bull breed, the rescues are full of them. There should be a ban on breeding them IMO as too many end up in rescues and there have been too many deaths because of them. I know they can be lovely, but when they're not they're deadly.

This thread is so much the antithesis of all the threads about getting a dog on MN.
It is usually all about 'only getting a rescue' and 'how dare you buy a puppy when there are so many dogs waiting for their forever home'.

@OopsaDayZ

I'll probably get slated but I also think ALL bull terrier's should be banned. And that includes the Staffordshire bull terrier that for some reason loads of people love.

They seem so popular, however, it's only particular types of people that seem to like them.

I'm a professional, middle-class working pensioner and I love staffies. All those I've met have been lovely dogs. Do I fit your stereotype?

I've never had one though, I'm not a good enough trainer to deal with the separation anxiety they can be prone to.

AFAIK this was a bull terrier/staffie type. Bought by the couple, not rehomed from a dog shelter who would have refused. I am sure their explanations will come out about why they did this and I believe the police are trying to find out who sold the dog to them.

I would also be reluctant to have an existing dog in a room with a baby if it was a much cuddled dog and got jealous or deprived of exercise because of the child.

[quote UKRAINEwearewithyou]@DogInATent

There may be missing deaths but the recorded data shows a particular type of breeds are involved time and again.....

The data is taken from the ONS data for Egland and Wales an doesn't quite match since the link is deaths for the UK as a whole.

My point stands though, the same old same old breeds are listed for the attacks. The majority of deaths from dog attacks have the breeds listed and not as you say unknown.[/quote]
The breed data is NOT taken from the ONS data.

Breeds are as-reported by the media, which should not be taken as fact. Most people reading this thread would struggle with the difference between pitbull, Staffordshire bull terrier, and bull terrier, yet you'd have a neighbours comment to a journalist taken as gospel on the breed of dog involved.

As if by magic, a rescue popped up on my Facebook, small terrier thing:

“…nearly 3 years old and has been with us a while.

…issues have become too much for them and they feel he needs a more experienced home.

…does have a bite history and we would not consider a home with children

There is a possibility he may live with a small, calm older bitch, with careful introduction and it may be beneficial for him and help his anxieties.

…has not been cat tested and so needs a cat free home.

…needs a home sympathetic to his need for his own space. He will also need someone willing to spend a lot of time building his confidence to be able to be groomed, as currently the grooming process is very stressful for him. He does become reactive in these situations and will need someone who’s able to keep calm, help him lower his anxiety levels patiently until his confidence builds.

…isn’t keen on walking or car journeys.

Home criteria:
🐾 Adult only, someone around a majority of the time.

🐾 Pet free or an older, calm, well adjusted female dog who will help understand what is wanted from him in his new home.

🐾 Some one commited to working to build his confidence in a patient and understanding way.

🐾 A home who has experience with dogs, is not suitable for a first time dog owner.”

The chances of this dog actually settling into a home and not needing extremely careful management for the rest of his life seem really slim, he’s clearly very stressed, and you have to wonder about his quality of life.

That dog should be put down, @ChuckBerrysBoots. Bitey, aggressive, scared.

Got our first dog from RSPCA
They chose her as “ Suitable “ for a 9 yr old DC

They do not ( or didn’t) rehome to people with young children.

Not fair on dog or child.

To kill a child, that would be a “ Usual suspect”

Doubt if a poodle or small spaniel.