“Getting ANY adult dog breed is strongly NOT recommended”

[tallulahtoo78]

From a dog expert interview on LBC discussing the utterly awful, tragic death of the 17 month old little girl.

I don't think there is an easy fix for this - no matter what you do, you can't legislate for stupid, selfish and irresponsible people. Not rehoming adult dogs is really not an option though - I know so many (childless) people who have rehomed adult dogs and really put in the work in terms of learning behavioural management, attending training and producing wonderful dogs.

ANY dog can turn. We had 2 shelties pre-children, but we had both rehomed with an elderly lady, when one of them made a move on my then-2-year-old.

@Whitney168

But that's the whole point, *@TeloMere* - you saw lots of young children with dog bites, not children or adults who had been killed.

All dogs can bite, no-one is denying that. Yes, the oft quoted terriers have occasionally killed babies, horrific. However, the ones that are causing serious injuries or killing children and adults are not Yorkshire Terriers or Jack Russells.

Actually, one of my best friends works in the police. He said that most dog attacks they get called to are your traditional 'softer' family breeds. They just don't hit the news because a) nobody died and b) not a banned or suspected banned breed - ergo not newsworthy. Still some horrific injuries though and enough to convince me that young children and dogs, certainly new dogs, are not a good combination.

Of course it is not a good idea to get any new adult dog while you have a small child in the house - resident or visiting. I would only say to all those people saying to get a puppy that it is not necessarily a better situation. During our marriage we have had six dogs. 3 were bull breeds which we have had since the children have been 13+ one was a mongrel rescue, one a dachshund from the dogs home and one a lovely pedigree puppy. It was that lovely pedigree puppy , trained at great expense and from a gentle hound breed that was the only one to bite one of my sons, leaving some quite nasty marks on his arm for a little while. There is always some risk with a dog and as a good dog owner you ;need to manage this. If this case does turn out to be a dog of pit bull type, sold on for behavioural reasons then sadly the family were a catastrophe waiting to happen.

Our first Leonberger was adopted at one and we had a seven year old. However, she was really carefully assessed by the breed rescue people and we and they were confident that there wouldn't be any problems. And there weren't, although she was never too keen on people wearing hi-vis for some reason.

Adopting an adult dog isn't necessarily a bad thing but you have to be really careful. Buying an adult dog that may or not be a banned breed is reckless in the extreme.

NB - none of our dogs have been left alone with small children although they probably could be. Partly because they're 60kg in weight and can flatten an adult when playing never mind a wee one but also because you can never completely trust any dog not to react badly if they're pinched or prodded etc.

People never learn though do they ? Just a few years ago, just down the road from where I live , a five year old girl was killed by a rescue bulldog that her mum had purchased just a few weeks before. It was in all the news. I don't understand why anyone would take the risk when there has been so many attacks in recent years. There was another one in our town where a small bay was kllled by two rottweilers ( guard dogs ) at a pub. That is two incidents just in my local area where children have died.

@tallulahtoo78 Do we know what the "expert"'s name is?

@Butteryflakycrust83

My mum has a toothless half blind 15 year old lapdog thats never said boo to a goose and i would never ever leave her alone with my baby. Its an animal and its unpredictable.

no, I wouldn't trust ANY child with my dog!

@BertieBotts

It's like having a massive open fireplace in your living room and if a toddling baby falls in you say "it was just an accident, surely losing your baby is enough punishment?"

I don't really understand this - that is what happens - I've never heard of somebody going to prison for their baby having an avoidable accident at home? It's different if the parents were passed out from alcohol/drugs and the baby fell down the stairs or something.

The risks of dogs and small children are really poorly understood by a lot of people, I think it's quite likely to end up in a situation where parents literally didn't know they were taking a risk. And to find out in the most awful way :(

Maybe there should be more education in general rather than extremes (banning dogs, making blanket statements). Because it seems every time this happens the papers are outraged and then it gets into an unhelpfully "sided debate" where you have "dogs are evil menaces" vs "no they are innocent lovely creatures, my dog would never" and nothing changes. The reality is it's not about whether dogs are trustworthy or not, it's down to owners to take responsibility and accept their dog is capable of causing harm and manage that risk.

Dog licensing with a mandatory course about dog psychology, modern training methods and the risks around young children/other animals would be the best approach IMO. Phase it in so that existing dog owners have chance to get the qualification. Since all dogs have to be microchipped and registered it would be easy to prove you were already a dog owner by a certain date and do a shorter course. Maybe refresher courses if someone is responsible for an anti-social dog incident (minor bite etc)? Like those speed awareness things. Everybody accepts that cars are risky but beneficial, so we manage the risks. There doesn't need to be a debate between "All cars are killing machines, ban them" vs "But I am a perfectly safe driver!" - it's simple - we make people pass a test to get a licence and then they are banned if they can't handle the risk reliably.

Why is it different if the parents are passed out from alcohol/drugs? Knowingly putting a child at risk of harm is still neglect, whether the parent is drunk or sober. Willful neglect is a crime and just means you are aware harm can come to the child and took the risk anyway - leaving a toddler unsupervised next to an open fire, keeping drugs within reach of a child, leaving a small child home alone, drunk driving with children or not bothering with car seats, having a big unknown dog in your home with your toddler. Just because harm is unintentional or an "avoidable accident" doesn't mean it isn't neglect.

Dog ownership needs some controls. It's too easy to buy an unknown large dog online.

I love my dog. We bought a puppy as it was too difficult to get a rescue suitable for a house with children and cat. She is 5 now.
I would have registration of all breeders. Ban overseas rescues and imports (most of these rescues are unsuitable pets, one attacked my dog in a car park).

Most rescue centres would not allow a dog to be re homes with small children, or even slightly older ones. Less regulation of the dog had been rescued privately though.

It's so tragic that this keeps happening. Any dog can snap, regardless of breed buy bigger dogs have more potential to kill!

I got our 8 week pup (terrier) when Dd wasn't even 2. We've had no issues, Dd has grown up dog savvy and they've grown up together, dog is now 5, Dd nearly 7. When Dd was small I wouldn't have left them alone but now she's older, they are always out in the garden playing together or sat on the sofa together.

I would have loved to rescue a dog, but knew I couldn't with young children.

My neighbour has rescued a 5 year old Rottie with two small children. They've had it a while and all seems okay, the dog seems friendly enough it's just massive and stronger than her owner (who's not even 5 foot. It's not something I would have done.

I think recusing an adult dog is acceptable with kids in some cases, like when full history is known or they are rescuing from a family household already and there's been no issues.

@Babyroobs

People never learn though do they ? Just a few years ago, just down the road from where I live , a five year old girl was killed by a rescue bulldog that her mum had purchased just a few weeks before. It was in all the news. I don't understand why anyone would take the risk when there has been so many attacks in recent years. There was another one in our town where a small bay was kllled by two rottweilers ( guard dogs ) at a pub. That is two incidents just in my local area where children have died.

The elderly lady with dementia who was killed by two pit bull type dogs last year lived near me. She was just in her own garden minding her own business.

Those dogs were trained to do damage though I think, from what neighbours had said.

@EricScrantona

I'm not sure. I always believed that if you had children you should have a puppy so you can ensure you know the history and raise them as you wish. However, when our Rottweiler (worlds most amazing dog) passed away, we got another dog a while later. DMIL was working with German Shepard rescues and said she would get is a rescue. I refused as I felt it was too dangerous to not know a dogs history. We got an Akita. This dog has been raised with so much love and affection but something happened in his first weeks of life (or he is just a sensitive and anxious nature) that makes him flinchy, food possessive, scared of everything and unsure. We know how to handle him but it's been a learning curve. In the wrong hands, he would be dangerous. My friend got a rescue adult presa canerio at the same time. Amazing dog, calm and steady and great with children. DMIL also has a few rescues in her house that are all amazing family dogs. Ultimately, I think you can't know what you're getting yourself into. You can only do your best to pick a good dog.

What I would say is that people should have training/licences and approval from an appointing body prior to being able to get a dog.

Are you in the UK? Presa canerios are a banned breed.

What time was the interview please, I would love to listen to it on catch up

People need to just apply common sense. I was brought up with large dogs as a child, in my grandparents houses, in my house, my uncles etc. I was never left alone and I was taught how to behave around a dog, no pulling/jumping on them etc. It's ridiculous to say people with children shouldn't have dogs.

There are far more children killed by humans. That doesn't mean we get rid of parents. Humans are unpredictable. It's all about common sense and this sounds like the parents have stupidly bought an adult/non socialised dog that they don't know the history of.

They have been punished enough by losing their child.

@axolotlfloof

Dog ownership needs some controls. It's too easy to buy an unknown large dog online.

I love my dog. We bought a puppy as it was too difficult to get a rescue suitable for a house with children and cat. She is 5 now.
I would have registration of all breeders. Ban overseas rescues and imports (most of these rescues are unsuitable pets, one attacked my dog in a car park).

I'd add restrictions to some other 'rescues' too. Particularly the well-known one popular on MN (I shan't name, it attracts the trolls) that specializes in re-homing ex-breeding dogs. These are both unsuitable for families (having never been raised as part of a household) and it supports the breeding farms.

Any rescue that doesn't adequately assess dogs, prospective owners and homes, or that lacks suitable policies on rehoming with families, should not be able to operate.

If all imported rescues were restricted, I wonder how Ireland would cope? (readers may not realise the origin of a very large number of UK rescue dogs available for rehoming).

Terribly sad - yet easily preventable. I have a 9 week old puppy and my 2 adult large breed dogs have only been allowed to sniff him through the bars of a pen so far - I won't risk his safety, why would you allow a strange dog access to your precious child?

@Ashleighz88

People need to just apply common sense. I was brought up with large dogs as a child, in my grandparents houses, in my house, my uncles etc. I was never left alone and I was taught how to behave around a dog, no pulling/jumping on them etc. It's ridiculous to say people with children shouldn't have dogs.

There are far more children killed by humans. That doesn't mean we get rid of parents. Humans are unpredictable. It's all about common sense and this sounds like the parents have stupidly bought an adult/non socialised dog that they don't know the history of.

They have been punished enough by losing their child.

I disagree that if they were "naive and reckless" that losing their child is punishment enough. This child deserved to be kept safe, how can people be so careless? The child is not a loss possession but a vulnerable person who had the right to be kept safe.

I don't understand the nation's love affair with dogs - any dog can bite given circumstances and I don't understand why there aren't more information campaigns about the dangers of dogs and the need to train and treat them appropriately. I found this website and talked to my son about dogs behaviour after he was terrified by off the lead dogs she small doggonesafe.com

many dog owners do not train their dogs properly/ treat them like people / and do not provide enough exercise or stimulation. I grew up with dogs and would not have one now because I simply cannot invest enough time in its wellbeing

I agree with the core point that you cannot legislate for stupid. And bringing an unknown, powerful animal, without knowing its history, into a house with a toddler is stupid. There are a lot of stupid people about.

Also agree that the thinking around putting dogs to sleep needs to change. You see it on here all the time - a poster whose circumstances has changed, or who whose dog has always been aggressive, or whose dog has suddenly started nipping or biting. And the dog mad bunch always pile on with the same statements about dogs being for life, and how the poster made a commitment, and how the dog was there before the child, and how she should throw ££££ and behaviourists and trainers and special food and whatever else, that putting it down is absolutely the worst crime ever.

And if the OP tries the ££££ therapy for her dog and it's STILL aggressive and unpredictable, then she sticks it in a shelter and risks it going to another house, to be equally aggressive and unpredictable? Or the rescue pick up on the temperament, and keep it in kennels for the rest of its life?

No. Just put it to sleep and save yourself all the money and hassle. Why are people made to feel guilty for destroying a dangerous or aggressive animal?

And don't get me started on people who think it's a good idea to import these sorts of mutts from Eastern Europe.

I have four adult staffys in my house. They are the most loving dogs in the world. We have them all bar one since 6 weeks old. I have two children the youngest is 12. My children adore the dogs. We are dog mad in our house so they have been brought up with our children, get exercised constantly, come on holidays with us etc. Not all dogs are bad. But I would not bring a dog into my house that I didn't know it's temperament especially around a baby/ small child.

This child deserved to be kept safe, how can people be so careless?
The child is not a loss possession but a vulnerable person who had the right to be kept safe.

I agree with this. Adults keep failing children wrt dogs. We’ve had numerous stories like this in the media.

Maybe there needs to be some kind of licensing system involved in buying and selling animals, so there is a registered owner and a record of things like how old the dog is and who has previously owned it.
Dogs should be rehomed through registered charities rather than bought and sold on facebook

This. Much tighter regulation of dog ownership.

@StepAwayFromGoogling

I have heard this too, many times. I read before that the breed that attack children the most are Labradors, but it isn’t common knowledge.

It’s all down to the owners being irresponsible, I mean most dog owners think it’s ok to have their dogs running about and just shouting it’s ok he/she is friendly without a care in the world or being able to recall the pet.
Imagine what they’re like in their own homes, it’s like animals come 1st then wonder why these thugs happen.

It’s so sad that poor little girl.

@2022HereWeCome

I don't understand the nation's love affair with dogs - any dog can bite given circumstances and I don't understand why there aren't more information campaigns about the dangers of dogs and the need to train and treat them appropriately. I found this website and talked to my son about dogs behaviour after he was terrified by off the lead dogs she small doggonesafe.com

many dog owners do not train their dogs properly/ treat them like people / and do not provide enough exercise or stimulation. I grew up with dogs and would not have one now because I simply cannot invest enough time in its wellbeing

It's become taboo sadly to talk about dogs that are dangerous. If you try, you'll be met with a chorus of 'it's the owner's fault, not the dog' as if that's relevant when what matters is that they're dangerous full stop. If your child is mauled by a dog it doesn't matter to you whether the fault lies with the dog or with the humans that raised them.

I've lost track of the number of times I've seen people extol the virtues of pit bulls for example, repeating the myth that 'they're nanny dogs!' because they heard someone say it and didn't bother to check the veracity of that statement.