“Getting ANY adult dog breed is strongly NOT recommended”

[tallulahtoo78]

From a dog expert interview on LBC discussing the utterly awful, tragic death of the 17 month old little girl.

@tallulahtoo78 no, not one parent left and the dog is a massive asset to my setting. The children adore her and she them. They are always supervised closely and never left alone.
I have a rigorous risk assessment and have spent a small fortune on ensuring my dog has both a good environment and proper training, despite being an experienced dog owner.

I will say though that when we are out an about it astounds me how many parents let their children run at my dog and bother her without asking first. I am very happy to have her sit and meet people but FFS, just because she is little and cute and yes, looks a bit like waffle, doesn't mean she doesn't have the capacity to do damage so ask me first and if I think ahe wants to Im happy to chat and guide your inexperienced kids through meeting a strange animal!

At the weekend we were at. a shopping outlet village which is incredibly dog friendly. Kids pounced at my dog, one tried to pull her tail! I did say she probably wouldn't bite but I might! Another family came over and asked if their nervous 4 year old could say hello and I sat on the floor with the dog and child and helped her pet my dog and give her treats.

bearfrills what more do you need to know ? They brought a dog into their home and allowed it to be close enough to their toddler for it to kill.

@CallMeDaddy58

I am also a dog expert who works in a rescue centre. Any person still spouting wolf pack theory bullshit is not a dog expert to be trusted.

It’s utterly insane to hear the details of this case (as we know them so far) & then claim a single man in his 50s couldn’t possibly safely rehome a 5 year old Yorkie that ended up in rescue because it’s 90 year old owner died.

You could raise a dog from a puppy & it can still have triggers. Most people raising dogs don’t have a clue what they’re doing and don’t seek help from reputable sources.

The biggest study ever done into dog aggression was done by Bristol University and findings were very interesting. There really isn’t such a thing as an aggressive dog. Some are fear aggressive. Some food aggressive. Some dog aggressive etc. no dog is just “aggressive”. No breed is just “aggressive”. Being an owner under 25 years old massively increases the likelihood of a dog having aggression issues.

You could be a young couple with a baby and toddler who decides to get a Collie from a local farm breeder and I’d tell you that’s insane. Utterly irresponsible. They’re a working dog which high needs and not appropriate for a young family. If you got a 2 year old rescue golden retriever who had previously lived with small children but the owner lost their job and can’t care for them anymore…that’s a much more sensible option. Black and white thinking is rarely sensible. Dog ownership is no different.

If you are extremely concerned about a dog harming your children…don’t get a dog full stop. It isn’t an essential requirement.

So what's you views on staffys then?

There really isn’t such a thing as an aggressive dog.

I’m sure that’s an enormous comfort to this family.

I can't understand why anyone in their right mind would bring an adult dog into their home with a young child. I'm presuming they are not the most intelligent of people? You have no idea what issues it may have had.

Are you talking about this case in particular or do you think all dog owners with children aren't intelligent?

@CallMeDaddy58

I am also a dog expert who works in a rescue centre. Any person still spouting wolf pack theory bullshit is not a dog expert to be trusted.

It’s utterly insane to hear the details of this case (as we know them so far) & then claim a single man in his 50s couldn’t possibly safely rehome a 5 year old Yorkie that ended up in rescue because it’s 90 year old owner died.

You could raise a dog from a puppy & it can still have triggers. Most people raising dogs don’t have a clue what they’re doing and don’t seek help from reputable sources.

The biggest study ever done into dog aggression was done by Bristol University and findings were very interesting. There really isn’t such a thing as an aggressive dog. Some are fear aggressive. Some food aggressive. Some dog aggressive etc. no dog is just “aggressive”. No breed is just “aggressive”. Being an owner under 25 years old massively increases the likelihood of a dog having aggression issues.

You could be a young couple with a baby and toddler who decides to get a Collie from a local farm breeder and I’d tell you that’s insane. Utterly irresponsible. They’re a working dog which high needs and not appropriate for a young family. If you got a 2 year old rescue golden retriever who had previously lived with small children but the owner lost their job and can’t care for them anymore…that’s a much more sensible option. Black and white thinking is rarely sensible. Dog ownership is no different.

If you are extremely concerned about a dog harming your children…don’t get a dog full stop. It isn’t an essential requirement.

Agree so much with Border Collies not making good pets. Family member by marriage bought a working bred BC for ££££ She lives in a small flat in a noisy part of London. BC is going mad. The kids are teens and none of them are remotely interested in dog training.

Where DS hires space, there are two working BC,s who follow him or the Farmer about all day.
They herd the cattle when required.
They are calm and passive.
Dogs need to do what they were bred for.

But there are a worryingly large amount of dog owners about who are clueless as to even basic training, or the dog’s genetic drives or needs.

I don't trust anyone who claims to be a dog expert. You can't be an expert on all dogs.

The thing is how do you know someone relinquishing a dog is telling the truth?
Yes there’s a retriever that’s never shown aggression to children in a previous home and I’m sure it hasn’t however what’s to say it hasn’t just bitten someone and they keep zipped in order to rehome it and not take any responsibility. Same goes for the previous poster who has a lovely dog, you have no idea what it would do in a new environment away from all it knows.

The whole thing relies on people being honest and let’s face it the majority of people aren’t and see their dogs with rose tinted glasses.

If I was in charge (which I never will be thankfully!) I would ban the rehoming of any dog unless it’s through a reputable rescue and been assessed by a qualified (adpt or imdt reg) trainer and spent some time with the rescue in order to be assessed correctly.
There’s a rescue near me who takes in dogs and rehomes them via Facebook on the same day. Complete and utter madness IMO.

Regardless of the reason for aggression, at the end of the day the outcome is the same. Most aggression stems from fear, it does not make the attack any less horrifying.
I’ve seen dogs tear other dogs apart and also gone into homes to help people hiding behind bedroom doors from their own pets (90% of the time bull breeds)
It’s clear to me from the things I’ve seen that people don’t have the experience or knowledge to decide which pet is right for them and I wish there was a way to make the choice for them although I know this would be wrong in another way!

I do own dogs myself despite all of the above. However I have chosen a breed that is known for its gentle nature, was bred to rescue people not savage them and also went to a reputable breeder. By doing so I was able to meet not only the parents but aunts, sisters and brothers of the potential puppy and assess for myself that none of them showed an ounce of aggression.
Like I said, it’s mostly genetic. You can’t cuddle out a weak temperament and you can’t train away fear either. Please research the dog your going to live with for the next 12 years before taking it

@girlmom21

I don't trust anyone who claims to be a dog expert. You can't be an expert on all dogs.

This. I instantly dismissed the posters that start with ‘I’m a dog expert’ 😂

The thing is how do you know someone relinquishing a dog is telling the truth?

Exactly this. I know someone who decided it'd be a good idea to get a chihuahua when they had a large breed dog already. The people they bought it off were selling because 'they didn't have time for it' (turns out the dog had bit their child). The person I know kept it for a day then sold it on after it started biting the bigger dog, saying the dogs 'didn't get on'. They sold it to another home with children.

@DogInATent

It's not going to be a chihuahua, cocker spaniel, Yorkshire terrier or red setter, is it?

I definitely wouldn't trust either a chihuahua or Yorkshire terrier with a 17mo child. If you think that neither if these nippy, highly-strung breeds is capable of inflicting life-changing or fatal injuries on a small child then you're deluding yourself. Likewise dachsunds (considered by many vets to be the breed most likely to bite/nip), Westies, and other ankle-height and handbag-sized small status breeds.

A cocker is more likely to inflict blunt force trauma injuries from bouncing them off the furniture than nip them, and I can't remember the last time I saw a Red Setter. Lovely breed, but big, clumsy, and prone to chasing the horizon.

I saw two very gorgeous Red Setters the other day. It made me realise how long it's been since I last saw one. Beautiful dogs.

I've not read the detail's but I'm guessing the dog wasn't lap dog or Labrador

I think that perhaps we need some more controls on neutering, spaying and breeding. Like mandatory and free spay/neuter unless you are registered to breed etc. or perhaps you ought to have to actually pay a fee if the dog isn’t spayed/neutered by a certain age.

I don't agree with the statement that adult rescues should not be rescued altogether. However I agree wholeheartedly that no adult rescue should be adopted into the home of an under-5. Luckily the vast majority of rescues have this as a policy already - the problem is people selling their dogs on gumtree and the like. There needs to be strict guidelines and policy brought in to stop this from happening so that if a dog is to be rehomed, they MUST go through a qualified rescue centre who can understand the dog's needs and not place them with an unsuitable family.

Rescues also need to start rehoming rescues to WFH FT workers with no kids. Lots don't at the moment and it's not helping. We have two adult rescues, we work FT from home (we adopted from abroad a long time ago, one when she was a puppy and one when she was 1yr old) and our girls are fine. Plenty of attention during the day and they both get out with a fab dogwalker every weekday. Plus huge huge walks every weekend. Plus we got them far before we had DC and they are very well trained.

I also think it needs to be compulsory for people to complete a course before they can adopt a dog.

I actually don't think people should adopt dogs of any age, breed or whatever, including from a breeder, if they have under-5s. That might be controversial but it's too risky. You need to know a dog before introducing them to kids.

A dreadful, terrible situation, and I can't begin to imagine how the parents must feel .... but am I the only one to think 'the dog is being checked out to see if it's an illegal breed' - therefore it's clearly a bull type breed. They have it a week and let it with their baby. Really? An adult, bull-type breed with an unknown background .... with their baby????
So very sad that this has happened, but when will people learn. I've got five dogs, wonderful, lovely pets, and I've had them all since pups .... but I'd never, ever leave them with a baby or young child. My heart goes out to the family, this should never have happened.

I have a cute little beagle from a puppy. I wouldn’t leave her alone with kids. You can poke her, grab her tail and lie on her and even take her food. BUT she will bite you if you startle her awake , and I don’t trust other kids around her because she is a dog !

@oakleaffy

I would disagree that a BC can't make a pet but as you say they have very specific needs with respect to exercise and mental stimulation. We live in the country and our BC does get regular decent walks. Keeping a BC in a flat in a town is asking for trouble.

As you say, people don't research dog breeds properly. A pastoral breed will try to herd, a scent hound will go after interesting smells, a sight hound will chase things....

Thing is, how are you going to enforce rules like mandatory neutering etc?

How do you put in legal requirements for breeding, there are apparently already rules around how many litters can be bred etc, but they are utterly unenforceable and aren’t worth the paper they’re written on.

You need to start first and foremost with selling. Make it illegal to profit from the sale of animals, and yes, I say that on all of these threads, but that way you completely shut down the ideal for people to breed their designer mongrel to sell the puppies for a fortune. And you shut down the puppy farming industry overnight.

Make it illegal to sell a dog over the age of 6 months, with hefty penalties for individuals who do so as well as for the sites who permit the adverts.

Yes there will be the people who sell down the pub, but if you stop the sale of animals online then it all has to be done via the back door and there aren’t many people who will buy a puppy for 2 grand if they can get one for a couple of hundred.

And children need to learn how to behave around dogs, too

Just one line of many on here that makes my eye roll.

In fact this site should be renamed Dogsnet.

My way personally would be to get rid of most dogs. Stinking, noisy, dangerous and pointless.

Yet another young child dead because of the human obsession to own these things.

@ScreamingSauvignon

And children need to learn how to behave around dogs, too

Just one line of many on here that makes my eye roll.

In fact this site should be renamed Dogsnet.

My way personally would be to get rid of most dogs. Stinking, noisy, dangerous and pointless.

Yet another young child dead because of the human obsession to own these things.

You don't have to like dogs. That doesn't mean children shouldn't know how to treat animals in general. They should know how to approach a dog, what to do if a dog approaches you, what warning signs to look out for etc. Knowing what to do when a dog you don't know approaches you is as important as knowing how to safely cross the road.

@Jillybloop393

A dreadful, terrible situation, and I can't begin to imagine how the parents must feel .... but am I the only one to think 'the dog is being checked out to see if it's an illegal breed' - therefore it's clearly a bull type breed. They have it a week and let it with their baby. Really? An adult, bull-type breed with an unknown background .... with their baby???? So very sad that this has happened, but when will people learn. I've got five dogs, wonderful, lovely pets, and I've had them all since pups .... but I'd never, ever leave them with a baby or young child. My heart goes out to the family, this should never have happened.

I don't think they left the toddler alone with the dog A parent was out with them. But they couldn't make the dog stop once it started mauling the poor child. Too strong.

I’ve looked at the ONS figures for fatalities relating to dog attacks, it’s been below five in a population of circa 66 million people for many years annually. Road fatalities last year were 580. There were 594 murders incidentally in 2021, meaning the people around you are far more dangerous statistically than the family dog.

This is an absolute tragedy but it’s newsworthy because it’s so unusual. Yet we have people here basically saying people are wrong for having dogs and children. It’s an overreaction. There will be reasons why this has happened, and we know what they usually are.

Once upon a time I’d have said it’s all the owners fault, deed not breed and all that and would have debated that point pretty ferociously.

But the fact remains that whenever there’s a death, not just an attack but an actual death, it’s always a bull breed or more rarely a GSD or a Mollosser type (Rotts, mastiffs etc)
Sorry but it is. Always.

It’s never a Labrador, a border collie, a spaniel, a poodle etc.
I don’t deny that so called ‘friendly’ breeds bite, they can and do, but you rarely, if ever, see them implicated in an actual death.

I think a lot more responsibility has to go on people rather than dogs eg irresponsible people buying adult XL bullies off gumtree when they have young children, why, just WHY?! People keeping dogs as caged guard dogs, people allowing children to harass them, rewarding aggressive behaviour because they want a protection dog etc but even taking that into account, it’s always the same breeds!

The comments about Chihuahuas, I have a chihuahua, while he probably could kill a (very) young child the ferocity involved would have to be pretty damn extreme.
Multiple, hard, tearing bites.
There’s just no comparison between your average attacking chihuahua and your average attacking huge muscular bully type dog.
The latter could kill in an adult easily let alone a child

Yes, children do need to learn how to behave around dogs.

I want to scream when I hear people say things like “the dog is so lovely, the kids crawl all over him, pull his ears and his tail and he’s never bitten any of them.” And then if the dog did bite any of them it would be the dog that was put down, when actually if a child pulls a dog’s ears and tail the little shit deserves to be snapped at or whatever.

Obviously we’re not talking about a case like this one, but fact is that if parents not only kept an eye on their children around dogs for the sake of the children but also the sake of the dogs, less children would be likely to be bitten by dogs.

If my children poked and prodded a dog to the point the dog growled it would be the children who were reprimanded and not the dog.