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Ukrainian invasion part 13

999 replies

Alexandra2001 · 15/03/2022 07:40

Seems to be required.

OP posts:
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18
Snorkelface · 17/03/2022 01:39

@Chloemol I have done now thanks. Discovered I'm not the only one who's concerned about the thread.

BreadInCaptivity · 17/03/2022 01:46

So back to business....

Based on the latest ISW updates, Russia has not yet been able to re-strategise from it failure to achieve blitzkrieg.

It's economic outlook is bleak and based on Putin's last address he understands it's going to hurt the middle classes and is already designating them as the corrupt bourgeoisie who need to prove their loyalty.

China? Will look after China and unlike the West will play a long game. Benefit of not having meaningful elections every x many years. Frankly I've no idea where they will land but suspect they'll "dabble" in both camps whilst committing to neither. Slight of hand...what can't be seen/proven by either player didn't happen.

Russia, my question is do we want Putin to fall? I'm not so sure. Nature abhors a vacuum and the assumption someone "better" would take charge I think is naive. I'd rather see Putin left in power with his nails clipped and a realistic assessment of "new" geo-politics where the West loses its complacency and Putin's toothless president give us time to find our backbone.

ChitChatChatter · 17/03/2022 02:17

'Russia, my question is do we want Putin to fall? I'm not so sure. Nature abhors a vacuum and the assumption someone "better" would take charge I think is naive. I'd rather see Putin left in power with his nails clipped and a realistic assessment of "new" geo-politics where the West loses its complacency and Putin's toothless president give us time to find our backbone.'

I'm not sure that Putin will ever become completely toothless. A weakened, angry bear that can still cause havoc even by continuing to thrash about and lash out aimlessly will still be dangerous. Don't know much about potential successors.

WeirdArchitecture · 17/03/2022 02:44

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nonono1 · 17/03/2022 06:08

I was at a playgroup yesterday with my 3 year old and nobody spoke about it

It would hardly be an appropriate discussion to have when surrounded by small children at a playgroup!

AgnesWestern · 17/03/2022 06:33

@nonono1

I know that, but I’ve also been to other things (groups, classes and meet ups) and people weren’t talking about it either.

I suppose it’s because it’s on my mind an awful lot I find it hard to imagine anyone else just getting on with things without being fearful.

Ijsbear · 17/03/2022 06:49

I think that the world just won't be safe with Putin around. He is too good at creating dissent and strife, and lives, and good quality of live, are meaningless to him.

I think a living Putin's hatred now of the west will run very deep and he'll be bent on doing as much damage as he can, however he can. That's a lot when you look at what he's already done, and some people will always want his money.

YorkshireLondonMiss · 17/03/2022 07:09

@AgnesWestern we talk about it at work and I’ve had a few conversations with my friends - I think the general consensus is people are unsettled by it and are following the situation. A lot of people I’ve had conversations with though are very much of the mindset that the outcome is completely out of their hands and the best way is to focus on the here and now, doing what we can to help from afar but still enjoying moment to moment in our own lives. Especially after covid. We just can’t predict what will happen.

I was also very anxious and still have my moments but I also think if god forbid things escalate and the worst happens would I want to have spent my last few weeks being paralysed with fear? Conversely if things work out okay, would I want to look back and feel like I’d missed a good chunk of my life feeling this way. I completely appreciate that it’s a terrible situation and it all feels scary and out of control though and granted sometimes when I read the news I go into a bit of a fear spiral. I can’t imagine the range of emotions Ukrainians are going through, the bravery of the people is staggering.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 17/03/2022 07:19

Russia already lost the war and their army has been shown up to be shit. The Russian economy has been completely destroyed. Russia will be politically isolated for years to come - even China realises that. Sanctions aren’t going to be lifted in the foreseeable future.

Putin, and his dream of restoring the the Soviet Union, is finished.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 17/03/2022 07:22

@strawberriesarenot

Is it possible that Putin doesn't know what is happening on the ground in any detail? If his advisors have been afraid to tell him the truth, as has been said, is it still happening? I don't see, after the atrocities in Mariupol, for instance, how he can be outraged at being called a war criminal.
I'm sure he has internet access.
mpsw · 17/03/2022 07:25

@WeirdArchitecture

I just want to take a moment to thank everyone contributing to this thread. It is quite refreshingly tolerant for MN, and wonderfully informative. I can deal with the issue ok, but do sympathise with and very much welcome those with anxiety seeking solace here.

This thread since part 1 has been a great resource that I check in on each day as I'm not much of a news reader.
I hope it continues in this way and doesn't descend into a mud slinging match Grin It feels like everyone is welcome and the general tone is measured and tolerant. Thank you:)

The most heartbreaking detail for me at the moment (amongst so many) is how the people stranded in Mariupol are not allowed medical or drug supplies, so those who are seriously ill can't get the treatment they urgently need. I have no words. What a disgusting display of inhumanity this is.

And I'm certain I heard that Trump referred to the initial invasion of Ukraine as 'a work of genius'. WTAF? I hope people remember this.
Apparently he might have done an about-turn today, saying quite the opposite. Cockwombles galore.

The most heartbreaking detail for me at the moment (amongst so many) is how the people stranded in Mariupol are not allowed medical or drug supplies, so those who are seriously ill can't get the treatment they urgently need. I have no words. What a disgusting display of inhumanity this is

As I said back on thread 11:

"The Russians are tying up a lot of military-diplomatic effort in dangling the prospect of ceasefires for humanitarian corridors and no doubt fir air drops too idc.

"Mariupol is, I fear, stuffed. It sits in the middle of territory which will be important to the Russians as it is the ground which links the Crimea to Russia, and through which they will advance their attacks on the south"

Urban warfare isn't nice, isn't pretty and we saw it before in Europe between 1992 and 2002. Real people really suffer when cities are besieged and largely destroyed.

(People wondering about posters and what their area of expertise or relevant experience might be , can usually find out via AS)

PeonyRose80 · 17/03/2022 07:29

@RedToothBrush great post, absolutely agree. Wish I knew you in real life.

Adesignforstrife · 17/03/2022 07:34

@Papertyger

The people of Russia in 2022 and beyond are not going to be zombified.

The most secretive hideous country is actually north Korea. Even there people are aware they are living under a lie. If this is something that seriously worries you red,start reading about North Korea.

The danger with Russia if this drags on is anger and poverty and then a repetition of the Germany Hitler abused.
But even then I think the appetite is surely going to be democracy.
They tried and Putin crushed it I don't think they will Risk loosing it again if he goes.

How is the popular uprising in North Korea going though?
WeAreTheHeroes · 17/03/2022 07:41

Of course Putin knows what is happening. He has justified the invasion and won't back down. Yesterday their was an interesting article by John Simpson on the BBC News app about possible face saving exit strategies as part of the negotiations. This was something that had been discussed on these threads several times.

Like all negotiations, both sides are asking for more than they are prepared to settle for and it will be interesting to see what can be agreed. I hope something can be agreed soon.

In addition to their great tenacity and refusal to be cowed, the Ukrainians are also proving to be very strategic in their targeting of Russian generals and the way they are ensuring things like the railways are kept operating. Given the threat their Russian neighbour has been for many years, it looks as though they've been scenario planning for many years too.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 17/03/2022 07:42

Mariupol stand no chance, In Russia it's seen as the seat of the Azov battalions, so beside its tactical position there is also the ideological.

I've said it on previous posts, but the situation won't necessarily be safer without Putin. We know know what his generals think, we don't know who will come after him, and we know what happens where there is political vacuum and lots of loose arms.

The best outcome would be for Putin's was to falter, his influence gradually to wane, but what about the army? Where are they on this?

I think something has to happen in the next ten to fifteen days. But what?

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 17/03/2022 07:42

we don't know what his generals think

elephantmarchingin · 17/03/2022 07:46

@strawberriesarenot The war criminal thing is an interesting one (I think anyway)

To me it's clearly the line that he has been waiting for the US to use as now he can 'retaliate' to this and use it as justification for doing so e.g you were mean to me so I'll be mean to you.

This is why those in power do need to be very careful about what they actually say because it can so easily be used as 'justification'. This is why countries are/were dancing around the subject because they know it will be an escalator. Unfortunately Biden has exacerbated things which can have an affect of peace talks, start of further wars etc.

It was a clumsy (true however but clumsy none the less!) thing for Biden and now Poland I believe? To do!

ajandjjmum · 17/03/2022 07:48

Another one here who comes to these threads for updates and to learn. Thank you to everyone for sharing their knowledge and expertise.

Alexandra2001 · 17/03/2022 07:49

Russia already lost the war and their army has been shown up to be shit. The Russian economy has been completely destroyed. Russia will be politically isolated for years to come - even China realises that. Sanctions aren’t going to be lifted in the foreseeable future

Russia isn't even politically or economically isolated, many countries are not implementing full sanctions, some like India, Pakistan and Brazil are in support of his actions.

Putin, and his dream of restoring the the Soviet Union, is finished

Very premature, Putin's army will learn and do "better" things may not be going well for him but he is, bit by bit, taking more of Ukraine, with huge loss of life & destruction.

When his work is done there, he will, in time, turn his attention to other places.

So, i hope the peace talks are genuine but as with everything we have seen with Putin, it probably isn't.

Our best bet is Putin is overthrown.

OP posts:
Papertyger · 17/03/2022 07:58
  • all these new USA weapons going in,do they reach the whole of Ukraine? I don't know why but I always think of the capital?
notimagain · 17/03/2022 08:00

Good post Alexandra..

There’s lots made of the Russian Army stalling but that in itself won’t stop this war. In trying to objectively analyze their performance it’s also worth looking at how much territory they have occupied in the last three weeks…it’s actually not as shabby a performance as some are portraying it.

There’s also some analysis around that seems to indicate the Russian Air Force or at least the close air support element might unfortunately getting it’s act together.

We could be in this for the long haul unfortunately.

MarshaBradyo · 17/03/2022 08:05

@notimagain

Good post Alexandra..

There’s lots made of the Russian Army stalling but that in itself won’t stop this war. In trying to objectively analyze their performance it’s also worth looking at how much territory they have occupied in the last three weeks…it’s actually not as shabby a performance as some are portraying it.

There’s also some analysis around that seems to indicate the Russian Air Force or at least the close air support element might unfortunately getting it’s act together.

We could be in this for the long haul unfortunately.

I think it might be overstated too
Papertyger · 17/03/2022 08:06

Not me have you analysed the latest weapons going in?.
The drones, two types.

notimagain · 17/03/2022 08:09

@Papertyger

Not me have you analysed the latest weapons going in?. The drones, two types.
I’m aware of what’s in the public domain about them, same as most everybody else.

In themselves they won’t win the war but they’ll certainly help the Ukrainian Forces grind this out…..

RedToothBrush · 17/03/2022 08:14

@Ijsbear

I think that the world just won't be safe with Putin around. He is too good at creating dissent and strife, and lives, and good quality of live, are meaningless to him.

I think a living Putin's hatred now of the west will run very deep and he'll be bent on doing as much damage as he can, however he can. That's a lot when you look at what he's already done, and some people will always want his money.

Putin is radicalising Russians.

Sadly we understand the effects of radicalisation and what that can lead to.

I actually feel sorry for many Russians who have fled or are long established in the West, especially given rising anger with Russia but there's a potential security problem here too. I don't think it can be ignored.

When I pointed out that you can't contain an anti-purity spiral, you have to consider how this might manifest. Competitive loyalists determined to show their worth. Often those with nothing to lose. There are numerous ways for it to manifest.

Do these need to be expensive to be harmful to western countries? Do they need to be directly state sanctioned?

Someone up thread was bleating about how it doesn't affect us. Thats just outright blind stupidity.

Cyber security really bothers me. We know how North Korea has engaged in widespread crimes to illicit money to fund its nuclear program. It does not have to be state sanctioned either. Especially if you have a bunch of desperate people who can find work. Given people turned to gaming in Venezuela at one point because it paid better than salaried work. So we have at least two examples and we already know enough about troll farms in Russia.

People who have no other way to feed themselves or their family will do awful things merely to survive.

I don't know that this aspect of whats happening is being properly grasped.

I know people will be scared by the prospect. We should be, because thats what drives action to minimise it by understanding the risks. But I do think its an inevitability we will see this kind of spillover even if Ukraine wins and pushes Russians out and has a 'happy ending' peace settlement.

We are locked into this. The degree of fallout from this is what we have to be thinking about managing.

Putin will drive it for as long as he is around. But it will linger past him.

When Putin goes, if there is no clear successor the usual laws of political vacuums apply. We could just see another person pop up. Or we could see a couple of factions rise up and proceed to try and beat the shit out of each other. Possibly with big fuck off weapons. Or we could see a popular uprising. The popular uprising is not the most likely because the Russian system of intimidation and control is mafia like. It could happen but I wouldn't say its the most likely option. That presents continuation of this mindset or internal conflict as more likely.

That probably going to mean Russian is a real geopolitical issue for generations now.