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Ukraine Invasion Part 12

999 replies

MagicFox · 11/03/2022 21:25

I see the other thread is filling up so starting the twelfth...

OP posts:
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14
AgnesWestern · 13/03/2022 13:08

@MagicFox that’s a worrying article Sad

I didn’t think he wanted war against NATO or else he would have attacked a NATO country directly surely? Why would he do all this messing around and pretending? Surely he could just do it.

I don’t know what to think right now and it’s making me feel physically uneasy. I hate the underlying uncertainty. I wish we could just see into the future.

EsmaCannonball · 13/03/2022 13:09

Don't know if this has already been mentioned but Russia have replaced the kidnapped mayor of Melitopol with a pro-Russian puppet mayor. She's put out a message saying the locals have to accept the new reality. Nothing makes me more angry than a bloody Vichy collaborator.

Feelingthepinch22 · 13/03/2022 13:10

A New York Times journalist was killed in shelling today & another seriously wounded....

WeAreTheHeroes · 13/03/2022 13:11

@PerkingFaintly - DP doesn't need his eyes opening to Putin's MO thanks, he's much better informed than I am and reads widely from a number of different reputable sources.

In a war both sides use disinformation and propaganda. Just because I've repeated something that has been suggested to me could be an explanation and we collectively don't like or believe it doesn't mean it isn't a possible explanation. Ukraine has repeatedly called for a NFZ and this could be a tactic. Just as Russia may have chosen to deliberately attack a base used by NATO very close to the Polish border in order to provoke, to frighten, who knows why. Or maybe just to destroy weapons and capabilities which could be used against them.

WeAreTheHeroes · 13/03/2022 13:12

@EsmaCannonball

Don't know if this has already been mentioned but Russia have replaced the kidnapped mayor of Melitopol with a pro-Russian puppet mayor. She's put out a message saying the locals have to accept the new reality. Nothing makes me more angry than a bloody Vichy collaborator.
And with a gun to her head would you have expected her to resist? Her motivation may be to appease the Russians sufficiently to stop further suffering.
shreddednips · 13/03/2022 13:15

[quote MagicFox]Apologies if this makes anybody more anxious but I wanted to get opinions on this analysis, which has frightened me: davetroy.medium.com/has-putin-already-decided-to-attack-nato-a1f8e52ce2de[/quote]
It's a scary article, but I still don't see why Putin would have started in the way he has if he intends all-out war.

For one thing, I don't see why he would start a war with NATO unless he thought he could win it. I can't imagine why he would want Russia completely wiped out in an all-out nuclear conflict. Assuming then that he thought a war could be won with some kind of limited nuclear exchange or with standard military force, why would he first expend so many of his resources on Ukraine while potentially reducing support in his own country?

I also can't imagine China seriously backing Putin if they really thought an all-out war with NATO was on the cards. China has a flourishing economy and relies on trade with the west. Even if Xi broadly agrees with the sentiment, I can't think how siding with Russia in such a conflict would be in China's best interests in any way. It would be back to the Middle Ages for everyone if that happened.

EsmaCannonball · 13/03/2022 13:15

Not much info on the NYT journalist being killed but I've just read that he was shot by the Russians. The attack sounds very similar to what happened to Stuart Ramsay and his team the other day.

EsmaCannonball · 13/03/2022 13:17

No, I am not at all sympathetic to the new 'mayor' of Melitopol. The Russians installed her for a reason.

notimagain · 13/03/2022 13:21

With regard to the scary article, here’s a short bio of the author:

www.ted.com/speakers/dave_troy

Might be worth bearing in mind when considering how much anxiety the article should trigger.

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2022 13:29

New York Times Journalist Brent Renaud has been killed after the car he was travelling in near Irpin was shot. Apparently by Russians.

His partner was also shot but has been taken to hospital in Kyiv.

EsmaCannonball · 13/03/2022 13:31

To put this in context, the new, forcibly installed 'mayor' of Melitopol, Halyna Danilchenko, is calling the brave and peaceful protesters in the city 'extremists,' while the democratically elected kidnapped mayor is being accused by the Russians of being a 'terrorist.' Unless, he's rescued we can all see where this is headed. This isn't a case of a poor woman forced to become mayor at gunpoint.

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2022 13:32

[quote WeAreTheHeroes]@PerkingFaintly - DP doesn't need his eyes opening to Putin's MO thanks, he's much better informed than I am and reads widely from a number of different reputable sources.

In a war both sides use disinformation and propaganda. Just because I've repeated something that has been suggested to me could be an explanation and we collectively don't like or believe it doesn't mean it isn't a possible explanation. Ukraine has repeatedly called for a NFZ and this could be a tactic. Just as Russia may have chosen to deliberately attack a base used by NATO very close to the Polish border in order to provoke, to frighten, who knows why. Or maybe just to destroy weapons and capabilities which could be used against them.[/quote]
I'd say it would be to piss off NATO and push boundaries. Its a test of response as much as anything.

Plus it looks 'ard to Russian eye. Showing NATO who is boss without actually directly crossing the line.

I think we will see more of this happen tbh.

There has to be good thought given as to what happens with this...

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2022 13:33

#Russia says it is counting on #China to help it withstand the blow to Russian economy from Western sanctions - Reuters

More pushing back to see how much it will work...

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2022 13:35

Also reports that journalist Oleg Baturyn has disappeared in Kherson today.

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2022 13:38

twitter.com/annalisacamilli/status/1502978846500573185

annalisa camilli @annalisacamilli
Two American journalist shot by Russian at Irpin bridge. One is under surgery at the main hospital in Kyiv and the other was shot at the neck.

This is apparently a video of Brent Ranaud's colleague.

Alexandra2001 · 13/03/2022 13:38

Just because I've repeated something that has been suggested to me could be an explanation and we collectively don't like or believe it doesn't mean it isn't a possible explanation. Ukraine has repeatedly called for a NFZ and this could be a tactic. Just as Russia may have chosen to deliberately attack a base used by NATO very close to the Polish border in order to provoke, to frighten, who knows why. Or maybe just to destroy weapons and capabilities which could be used against them

Fair point but without any evidence, its just speculation, it is also supporting Putin/Russia - which i'm sure you don't wish to do?

Given how successful Ukrainian forces have been with Western supplied weapons, Russia targeting supply lines and training areas is a very obvious strategy.

I'm surprised they didn't do this earlier, this maybe because until very recently not much was being sent in.

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2022 13:40

It seems that Brent Renaud was not working for the NYT in Ukraine and was instead freelancing.

There was a figure of up to 1300 foreign journalists working in Ukraine given last week. Many are free lancers.

Ukraine Invasion Part 12
Shuuu · 13/03/2022 13:46

Is the west likely to keep these sanctions in place for a very long time? Even after the war is over? I know this is not the fault of the Russian people however the disgust people have for Putin/Russia is so raw I’ll never forget this. I sincerely hope Putin pays a high price for this “special military operation”

Are there any reports of protests ongoing in Russia?

shreddednips · 13/03/2022 13:48

@Notonthestairs

Fascinating article linked to in this tweet below. The article was written by a Chinese policy advisor. Really worth a read. It's given me a bit of hope that China will change tack (whilst understanding that it would do so only to strengthen its own position)

twitter.com/ramez/status/1502895847301812224?s=21

"He closes by saying that China has 1-2 WEEKS in which to make a choice. And basically says that China should choose the West, and use its influence over Putin to end the war and bring him to heel. It says that China is the only nation that can. I don't disagree."

This is such an interesting article!
toastfiend · 13/03/2022 13:49

I think it's quite important to bear in mind, before attributing more nefarious reasons like deliberate escalation to the attack on the base near the the Polish border, that if it was indeed being used as a base to bring additional supplies through to the Ukrainians then it was a legitimate target and would have made strategic sense for the Russians to target it. In that instance, it's not really any different to Western attacks on Taliban supply lines near borders in Afghanistan. Everyone will be aware that it could cause an escalation, but it was not necessarily the outright intention. There's always going to be risks of this nature with NATO countries choosing to supply Ukraine with aid. That's not to say it's wrong that they do so or anything inherently right in Putin's actions in Ukraine, which are reprehensible, but there obviously will be - legitimate in the context of war - targeting by the Russians to prevent Ukraine gaining any kind of advantage and they warned as much the other day.

anxiouslama · 13/03/2022 13:49

@EsmaCannonball

Several sources reporting the phosphorus bomb claims. Reuters, BBC, Sky, etc..
Just had a look on Sky and BBC and can't see anything?
shreddednips · 13/03/2022 14:09

Just some slightly more hopeful news. It says on the sky news live feed that both sides say the talks have made 'substantial progress.'

Wrongkindofovercoat · 13/03/2022 14:14

Kadyrov, the Chechen leader, looks like what you'd get if you walked into Dobbies and asked for an Axis of Evil Garden Gnome

@EsmaCannonball funniest thing Ive read all day Grin

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2022 14:16

I think there is some merit to the China idea and I have pondered it to a degree.

China isn't keen on destabilisation as a rule (Tiananmen Square occurred at a point where there was a destablisation). China is dealing with covid still - and their vaccines are proving no where near as good as western ones. Their policy of zero covid first is starting to look problematic in HK as resources weren't put into the drive for vaccination. And the vaccination rate isn't anywhere near what it should be. There's been outcry this week over photos of patients in hospital beds whilst body bags are piled up on the floor.

And whilst this war works to China's favour by creating some opportunities, China generally favours a slower march forward because its more sustainable in the long term. Great shifts create greater unknowns.

You have to perhaps put North Korea and South Korea into the equation here. If Russia were to open pandora's box and use a nuke, it makes it far more likely that the same would happen on the Korean peninsula. That wouldn't be so cool for China for various reasons.

This week South Korea elected a conservative, Yoon Suk-yeol as its new president. He has said his government will prioritise "rebuilding the alliance" with the US and will no longer tolerate North Korean provocations and "bad habits".

China, will be taking notes.

More than that, in seeing how Russian interdependency with the US has been bad, many Western Governments and individuals are likely to start reassessing economic relationships with China. It was already starting to happen to a degree, due to politics and covid disruption. This will push it further. China's economic relationship with the US is larger. And an economic recession in the US and Western Europe will also decrease demands further - China needs busy hands. Idle hands means domestic issues it doesn't want.

The fact that Russia has effectly made a plea today about China and needing them to get around sanctions (as reported by Reuters) is interesting. It suggests a growing awareness that China is already blocking access to a degree and may go further. Plus its timely...

Kaitlan Collins@kaitlancollins
^News — Jake Sullivan is set to meet with China's top diplomat Yang Jiechi in Rome tomorrow, where Russia's invasion of Ukraine is expected to be a "significant topic." Story with @FossumSamuel

edition.cnn.com/2022/03/13/politics/jake-sullivan-meeting-chinese-counterpart-ukraine/index.html
National security adviser Jake Sullivan to meet with Chinese counterpart amid Ukraine invasion

The Russian's sound a bit rattled and worried about prospect China deciding to side with the West in any way. But in reality there is little they can do about it.

There's been other threads about this, but the overall point seemed to be that China had little to gain by siding with Russia. And being neutral didn't serve them that well either after a certain point. The weakness of Russia is something that will be around for a while and they can make use of now, with a prompt end to the war.

But China has got a track record of deliberately staying out of things, so they may decide to do that regardless and intervention may only be wishful thinking by the west.... China could see dominance over Russia in the future as a goal which it can achieve by backing it. (Something they might see as achievable by not backing it too though).

Russia really should be looking over its shoulder though.

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2022 14:17

@toastfiend

I think it's quite important to bear in mind, before attributing more nefarious reasons like deliberate escalation to the attack on the base near the the Polish border, that if it was indeed being used as a base to bring additional supplies through to the Ukrainians then it was a legitimate target and would have made strategic sense for the Russians to target it. In that instance, it's not really any different to Western attacks on Taliban supply lines near borders in Afghanistan. Everyone will be aware that it could cause an escalation, but it was not necessarily the outright intention. There's always going to be risks of this nature with NATO countries choosing to supply Ukraine with aid. That's not to say it's wrong that they do so or anything inherently right in Putin's actions in Ukraine, which are reprehensible, but there obviously will be - legitimate in the context of war - targeting by the Russians to prevent Ukraine gaining any kind of advantage and they warned as much the other day.
This.

Plus still not crossing the line.