How are you explaining to your boys about only men being conscripted in Ukraine?

[MiniDaffodils]

I have both girls and boys. We have always brought them up to understand that whilst boys may be physically stronger, girls can undertake the same roles in anything as boys can.
My boys are upset at the thought that only men are being made to fight in Ukraine and not women. They think it’s very unfair.
I think they are imagining themselves in that same situation. Obviously I have explained in this country both men and women would be called up to fight. My boys are gentle souls and the thought of only men having to kill others is disturbing them.
My girls are relieved at the idea that women in Ukraine are not called to fight despite usually them being very vocal about the fact boys and girls are equal in all things.
My main question is how to explain this to my sons, rather than my daughters (who don’t seem as bothered by the issue).
Thanks

I'd tell them what I always tell them, life isn't fair.

@etulosba

Did you just c & p this statistic without analysis?

I provided a source for my data, which is more than the poster I was responding to did.

If you want analysis, find the study and do your own.

I can do my own analysis, I already have, having studied history.

Apparently it's too much to ask for your to analyse your own data: Suffice to say that posting a statistic without addressing historical context is rather naive.

My kids understand that biologically men and women are different and have different strengths and so it already seems to make sense to them that men would fight. Horrified that they HAVE to, of course. It's awful. But not wondering why women aren't made to.

@Comedycook

Let's imagine you're walking down the street with your husband and someone attempts to mug you. Surely the vast majority of us would expect out husband to step in and defend us rather than hiding behind us and leaving us to it!?

Actually I’d expect us both to gang up on the mugger....make it a two on one fight instead of being a fainting cow.

@Comedycook

I don't see how this is relevant. Women have to pass the same tests as men to join the armed forces

I'm not saying that women shouldn't be able to join the armed forces...but I suppose I do believe in a general sense that men have a duty to protect women and children.

' women and children'

I do not get why these are always bundled together, insinuating that women are as helpless as a young, undeveloped human.

It really grips my sh*t, makes women sound utterly pathetic

Women have to pass the same tests as men to join the armed forces
And those women should be able to fight alongside the men because of that. Because they’ve trained and are physically strong, stronger than the average woman.

But in terms of conscription of the general population, how many average women are physically stronger than their husbands/brothers/fathers etc?
Just because a small number of women are physically able, doesn’t mean by large that other women are

@Isaisa

Women have to pass the same tests as men to join the armed forces And those women should be able to fight alongside the men because of that. Because they’ve trained and are physically strong, stronger than the average woman. But in terms of conscription of the general population, how many average women are physically stronger than their husbands/brothers/fathers etc? Just because a small number of women are physically able, doesn’t mean by large that other women are

Playing devils advocate, how many of the general population - male or female would pass a basic fitness course.

I would say a very small percentage.

Actually I’d expect us both to gang up on the mugger....make it a two on one fight instead of being a fainting cow.

Have you ever seen two men fighting? Close up? It's not like on the TV and the average women would be ok f very little use.

Fact is many other societies have and do also conscript women into the Armed Forces.

Yes, but as part of regular mandatory military service. Not the same as a sudden mass conscription as a result of an invasion.

Completing 3 years of compulsory military service in an armed force that is already set up for training conscripts of both sexes is not in any way the same as being pulled into military service in an active war zone at a day's notice. Obviously!

^Playing devils advocate, how many of the general population - male or female would pass a basic fitness course.

I would say a very small percentage^

Exactly. Conscription here would have a very low bar.

@NarcissistsEyebrows
These rules, conventions were established millenia ago when these things were life or death for a tribe. Protect the women and children at all costs, they are where the future lies. A crowd of men with only a few women of child bearing age is not conducive to a happy or successful society

But not in all societies.....your grasp of history isn’t even British centric but based on the patriarchal Roman invading society. Millennia ago Celtic women fought alongside men. As they did in dozens of other societies.

@TeaForTiger

Actually I’d expect us both to gang up on the mugger....make it a two on one fight instead of being a fainting cow.

Have you ever seen two men fighting? Close up? It's not like on the TV and the average women would be ok f very little use.

I’ve been in fights with men. I don’t need to imagine.

This is an important lesson in any context. Bringing children up to believe everyone can do the same things and should be treated exactly the same isn't helpful.

@ENoeuf

I don’t get the angst really. ‘That’s what they do in Ukraine.’ Oh you don’t like it? Lucky you’re not Ukrainian then.

Exactly this

They are confused because reality is conflicting with the (false) information you have given them i.e. that parenting is shared equally and men and women are the same. Children are like a dog with a bone about an inconsistency like that. You are going to have to give a more nuanced explanation about how men and women's bodies and lives are different. Otherwise they will grow up as ignorant as those people who say 'feminists want it all and to pick and choose' etc etc.

If we were invaded (obviously hopefully not) I doubt very much that women would be conscripted to fight. I’m sure they would be able to volunteer. Women might be conscripted in other ways - health, logistics etc - but I just don’t believe they would be conscripted to fight.
Yes boys and girls deserve equal treatment. They are not equal in terms of physical strength. That’s just a fact.
Hopefully we’ll never find out of course.

@SirSamVimesCityWatch

Fact is many other societies have and do also conscript women into the Armed Forces.

Yes, but as part of regular mandatory military service. Not the same as a sudden mass conscription as a result of an invasion.

Completing 3 years of compulsory military service in an armed force that is already set up for training conscripts of both sexes is not in any way the same as being pulled into military service in an active war zone at a day's notice. Obviously!

Not true. In WWII women were mass conscripted albeit prevented from front line service. In Israel, they do have mandatory military service as you described but they do see combat as they are constantly skirmishing in the ME with their neighbours and also were conscripted then sent to Iraq and Afghanistan during those wars. In Kurdistan, the women were conscripted to fight ISIS.

I don’t feel comfortable saying that actually women can’t go onto the forces because they are physically weaker

You don't feel comfortable saying something which is a fact? Do you really think women are as strong as men? I would also add that this was is being decided on by men, being directed by men and has nothing to do with women who have had no say at all.

I imagine conscription is hell for most people concerned to be honest, but war is generally worse for women as other posters have pointed out.

It's always the flabby overweight men who go on about how much stronger and better they are than women.

It depends which women, doesn't it, mate? Generation X men are more likely to be overweight than women, for one thing.

I did the London Marathon (just the once!) in 4.5 hours. Some unfit twat said "I could walk it in that." Laughable really. I don't know how so many men are absolutely fucking delusional about what they are capable of. Oh to have the confidence of a mediocre white man, as the saying goes.

I'd explain that as part of NATO, we would follow the Americans in requiring both sexes to register for selective military service. And that would apply to all branches of the military as long as they satisfied the same selection and physical standards. I would also go on to say I couldn't possibly see any arguement to prevent women serving in all front line units.

Otherwise war is like the Helm’s Deep scene from Lord of the Rings.

Yes, and we also get that whole speech about how women still die by the sword (and worse) even when they're not allowed to fight (I have been #TeamEówyn since i was a young girl)

Mugger? yep. been there, we both reacted in a similar way forming something of a pincer movement and the wannabe mugger was very very sorry that he tried it on with me. Very sorry indeed.

I have a weird feeling about boys/men/anyone saying "waaahhh it's so unfair that only men get conscripted" and expect me to have anything more than my regular amount of sympathy for anyone caught up in a war. (for clarity: it is a lot)

It is extremely unfair that in the Fortune 500 there are more CEOs called Dave than there are women CEOs. What are men doing to address that? It is extremely unfair that women of childbearing age are being turned down for jobs (implicitly rather than explicitly because the law isn't in favour of this) in case they get pregnant. Even if they a) can't get pregnant b) don't want to ever have a child c) fuck that shit

It is extremely unfair that the burden of caring for children, siblings, elderly parents (and sometimes inlaws) falls mostly on women. For IWD i had so many discussions, as i always do at "well, luv, you don't see many women refuse collectors" - which pays quite well in many places - and the answer to that is complicated and long but boils down to a) gatekeeping b) shit employers and c) sure, not that many people really want to do that job. But a counter argument about "why don't more men go into caring professions" is that it's a) women's work and b) badly paid but never gets to c) is also physically and emotionally demanding and being covered in adult explosive shit isn't exactly clean and lovely.

So yes. Bottom line is: life is unfair. And we don't know if the world might have fewer wars in modern times if there were more female leaders because most countries (cf USA) won't give them a bloody chance to try.

Well firstly it's not safe for women in war, they get raped, it's already happened Ukraine and historically it always happens.

Also, someone has to look after the kids 🤷🏻‍♀️

Women are allowed to stay and fight if they want to.

@ancientgran

I'd rather stay and fight than give birth alone by the side of the road in minus 20° whilst trying to look calm and okay to stop the 2 small children I already have from being even more terrified than they already are. As a woman you would have the choice, that's the point of the OP isn't it, that men don't have a choice.

If you were a woman in Ukraine now, and 9 months pregnant, you would have become pregnant at the end of last spring . Ukraine was a very different place then. You have absolutely no choice now.To give birth in a hospital with medical experts around you means you need to stay in a basement maternity unit in kyiv whilst bombs fall above. Or you flee and give birth in the back of a car, in a field, at the Polish border control. Anyone who is pregnant now must be utterly terrified. They have no choice.

If both men and women were conscripted who would get the children out to safety?

@Brefugee

Otherwise war is like the Helm’s Deep scene from Lord of the Rings.

Yes, and we also get that whole speech about how women still die by the sword (and worse) even when they're not allowed to fight (I have been #TeamEówyn since i was a young girl)

Mugger? yep. been there, we both reacted in a similar way forming something of a pincer movement and the wannabe mugger was very very sorry that he tried it on with me. Very sorry indeed.

I have a weird feeling about boys/men/anyone saying "waaahhh it's so unfair that only men get conscripted" and expect me to have anything more than my regular amount of sympathy for anyone caught up in a war. (for clarity: it is a lot)

It is extremely unfair that in the Fortune 500 there are more CEOs called Dave than there are women CEOs. What are men doing to address that? It is extremely unfair that women of childbearing age are being turned down for jobs (implicitly rather than explicitly because the law isn't in favour of this) in case they get pregnant. Even if they a) can't get pregnant b) don't want to ever have a child c) fuck that shit

It is extremely unfair that the burden of caring for children, siblings, elderly parents (and sometimes inlaws) falls mostly on women. For IWD i had so many discussions, as i always do at "well, luv, you don't see many women refuse collectors" - which pays quite well in many places - and the answer to that is complicated and long but boils down to a) gatekeeping b) shit employers and c) sure, not that many people really want to do that job. But a counter argument about "why don't more men go into caring professions" is that it's a) women's work and b) badly paid but never gets to c) is also physically and emotionally demanding and being covered in adult explosive shit isn't exactly clean and lovely.

So yes. Bottom line is: life is unfair. And we don't know if the world might have fewer wars in modern times if there were more female leaders because most countries (cf USA) won't give them a bloody chance to try.

Preach! Fantastic post.