How are you explaining to your boys about only men being conscripted in Ukraine?

[MiniDaffodils]

I have both girls and boys. We have always brought them up to understand that whilst boys may be physically stronger, girls can undertake the same roles in anything as boys can.
My boys are upset at the thought that only men are being made to fight in Ukraine and not women. They think it’s very unfair.
I think they are imagining themselves in that same situation. Obviously I have explained in this country both men and women would be called up to fight. My boys are gentle souls and the thought of only men having to kill others is disturbing them.
My girls are relieved at the idea that women in Ukraine are not called to fight despite usually them being very vocal about the fact boys and girls are equal in all things.
My main question is how to explain this to my sons, rather than my daughters (who don’t seem as bothered by the issue).
Thanks

@borntobequiet

It would have helped if you hadn’t brought them up on fairytales to start with. But in general, what most people are saying ^^

Exactly. I am sure their girlfriends will thank you in the future Op when your sons tell them that their incredibly painful, debilitating periods are not a reason why they can't fully participate in something. I'm sure the phrase 'Well mum always said......" will go down brilliantly.

[quote Etinoxaurus]@MiniDaffodils
I don’t feel comfortable saying that actually women can’t go onto the forces because they are physically weaker and have periods - I don’t think that it holds weight as an argument anymore.
You absolute muppet[/quote]
Harsh, but fair. I admire succintness.

I would explain that women do normally fight on the front line now in most armed forces - though this is fairly recent. However, when it comes to conscription they can't conscript everyone - people will want to leave and take children with them.

Let's imagine you're walking down the street with your husband and someone attempts to mug you. Surely the vast majority of us would expect out husband to step in and defend us rather than hiding behind us and leaving us to it!?

@TeaForTiger

Slightly off topic, but are people really teaching their sons that:

• Women only need to breastfeed for a few months.
• periods are nothing and shouldn't hold women back.
• it doesn't matter that men are stronger than women.

I don't think this is how to raise a feminist and just seems all wrong to me!

Surely you teach your DS's that periods can be painful/ (mentally and physically) exhausting and women may need more help than usual. To be aware that men are much stronger than women and can hurt them easily etc? That men should support women by calling out the unacceptable behaviour of other men, not leaving them to get on with it 'cos equality'.

That's what I'm teaching mine.

Totally agree.

I was taught that periods were an bit of an 'inconvenience' we had to put up with for 4 or 5 days and life had to go on - preferably with no reminder of those periods to embarrass any one.

Continue as superwoman regardless.

Unnecessary stress.

[quote RoseslnTheHospital]@Cocomarine

"Why is it men that have that duty though?
That’s OP’s whole point!
This doesn’t help at all, and even a primary aged child will challenge that with their most basic of responses: why?"

Every adult has a duty to protect other people, particularly those that are more vulnerable than themselves. In the case of men, that will include nearly all women, some men (eg elderly, unwell, disabled) and children. In the case of women, that will include some men (eg elderly, unwell, disabled) and all children. I don't think that's hard to explain, or some kind of contradictory or unfair position.[/quote]
@RoseslnTheHospital I don’t disagree with a word you’ve said. It’s a great answer if someone said, “who should have a duty to protect?”

But it’s not answering the question of why men are the ones to have a duty to protect.

That’s what I’m disagreeing with.

• why is it only men who are conscripted mummy?
• because men have a duty to protect
• yes but why men mummy, not women too?

@RJnomore1

If both men and women are all called up to fight, who is going to take on the caring responsibilities that women are still left with 90% of the time?

Your boys might be happy to do it but on a societal and worldwide scale it doesn’t happen.

Not all women having caring responsibilities and some men do so maybe they could just say all adults without children under x age or without responsibility for a vulnerable adult (might be their child, sibling, parent etc)

@hotpinkkettle

No the able bodied men have the unfair advantage. Women are disadvantaged by this.

How so? The generally stronger (by no fault of their own) males are forced to stay and fight while the generally weaker females get a choice whether to or not.

Isn’t having a choice an advantage?

I'd rather stay and fight than give birth alone by the side of the road in minus 20° whilst trying to look calm and okay to stop the 2 small children I already have from being even more terrified than they already are.

IMO we in the U.K. (at least those of us who’ve never served with the military in e.g. Afghanistan) are so comfortably removed from the brutal realities of warfare, that it’s all too easy to pontificate very virtuously about the likes of gender roles in such devastating circumstances.

@Flatwhitetostayin wrong thread? 😉

@Rosehugger

I would explain that women do normally fight on the front line now in most armed forces - though this is fairly recent. However, when it comes to conscription they can't conscript everyone - people will want to leave and take children with them.

Yes some men will want to leave and take their children with them. Do children who don't have a mother deserve less?

Did you just c & p this statistic without analysis?

I provided a source for my data, which is more than the poster I was responding to did.

If you want analysis, find the study and do your own.

@NarcissistsEyebrows

I'm a bit confused that so many MNers don't seem to get what to me is the obvious answer to this. Women's bodies are so much more precious than men's because women are the ones who can repopulate the tribe / country. Men are a lot more disposable.

A (metaphorical) handful of men can impregnate a near unfinished number of women and get a country back tonits former population on a reasonable timescale.

Whereas if equal numbers of young men and young women are lost, then the ramifications of this for repopulating are much more serious.

These rules, conventions were established millenia ago when these things were life or death for a tribe. Protect the women and children at all costs, they are where the future lies. A crowd of men with only a few women of child bearing age is not conducive to a happy or successful society

yup, but I said this on another thread and got shouted down.

@Comedycook

Let's imagine you're walking down the street with your husband and someone attempts to mug you. Surely the vast majority of us would expect out husband to step in and defend us rather than hiding behind us and leaving us to it!?

I don't see how this is relevant. Women have to pass the same tests as men to join the armed forces.

However when it comes to conscription it's obviously different.

And for FWIW I wouldn't worry what DH was doing as I'd already be laying into the mugger. I expect DH would join in. He is certainly not a violent or fighty person but has intervened in a fight - a man laying into his girlfriend in the street late at night, and walked up and walloped the man.

I think if he were ever conscripted in some kind of war effort though as a 50 year old overweight civil servant he would probably be in a desk-based role, unless things were really desperate!

Not sure considering so many people identify as the opposite sex or none at all

@Luredbyapomegranate got it on the first page.

Rape is a massive weapon of war and is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men towards women - and also resulting in children of rape who generally also will suffer a lot of trauma, due to the circumstances of their conception.

Also in war it's not easy to sit down and ask every family to decide who should be main caregiver and go with children Vs not, or to tick people off the list at a border Instead you make a simple decision - in average families the men will be more physically equipped to fight, the woman is more likely to be main caregiver, women without kids (especially younger ones) are highly likely to end up assaulted by their own or the other side, and also be more of a risk given that they are statistically more likely to be weaker, and that especially in more traditional countries like Ukraine, in mixed units there can be issues when women get treated differently (even in seemingly positive ways).

I'd rather stay and fight than give birth alone by the side of the road in minus 20° whilst trying to look calm and okay to stop the 2 small children I already have from being even more terrified than they already are. As a woman you would have the choice, that's the point of the OP isn't it, that men don't have a choice.

And I don't know even if conscription would be the same everywhere. Certainly in Israel women do regular military service.

I think it is a perfect opportunity to discuss the ongoing sexism of society. How women continue to undertake the lions share of care work even where they work full time. How this links to expectations of being able to fight.

I'd be fighting against the dc leaving with the idea it us men being treated unfairly - clear women are the oppressed gender and we should be open about that if things are ever going improve on this front.

I don't see how this is relevant. Women have to pass the same tests as men to join the armed forces

I'm not saying that women shouldn't be able to join the armed forces...but I suppose I do believe in a general sense that men have a duty to protect women and children.

@WeDontShutUpAboutBruno

The patriarchy that usually works in favour of men has a down side for them occasionally too

Ditto testosterone. Which I have always said leads to world wars and Darwin awards.

And I'd be quite disappointed if I raised a son who would hide behind women in a dangerous situation

Yes some men will want to leave and take their children with them. Do children who don't have a mother deserve less?

I'm not saying I agree with the policy in Ukraine. But I guess someone had to take a difficult decision very quickly.

Because sexism....and you can point to the many obvious examples of that on this thread. I mean whittering on about care responsibilities, that’s what the men and women too old to be conscripted pick up during war.

Fact is many other societies have and do also conscript women into the Armed Forces. Israel and Kurdistan being two current nations. In the past, both China, USSR (Russia) and UK have conscripted women, although in the U.K. women were conscripted into home defence or other not on the front lines positions such as land army, anti-aircraft gunner, ambulance driver/ air ambulance nurse etc.