How are you explaining to your boys about only men being conscripted in Ukraine?

[MiniDaffodils]

I have both girls and boys. We have always brought them up to understand that whilst boys may be physically stronger, girls can undertake the same roles in anything as boys can.
My boys are upset at the thought that only men are being made to fight in Ukraine and not women. They think it’s very unfair.
I think they are imagining themselves in that same situation. Obviously I have explained in this country both men and women would be called up to fight. My boys are gentle souls and the thought of only men having to kill others is disturbing them.
My girls are relieved at the idea that women in Ukraine are not called to fight despite usually them being very vocal about the fact boys and girls are equal in all things.
My main question is how to explain this to my sons, rather than my daughters (who don’t seem as bothered by the issue).
Thanks

Obviously I have explained in this country both men and women would be called up to fight

Why do you think that? Ukraine army has a higher % of women in it than the British military does- and many women are choosing to stay and fight. Their comments suggests they'd be worried as they wouldn't want to be forced to fight, are they as bothered about areas of gender equality? I mean by being men they benefit a lot, guessing they're not arsed about that.

Women can't easily be conscripted - the beaucracy involved in issuing exemptions for women at a time of crisis would be extraordinary. Whats most needed is for the vulnerable to go (and be helped to go rather than be a burden) and the most phyiscally able to stay and fight. In practical terms this is simply the easiest way to do that, rather than making lengthy assessments no one has time for.

There is also basic things like bullet proof vests designed for male bodies - they are not suitable for women. That means women are more at risk. And stuff about the weight of military equipment. I couldn't physically carry it. Some women could, but most men can. Ironically, if all your weapons and protective gear are designed for men's bodies, you've already had the decision made for you in some ways...

There are plenty of roles that they can be conscripted to as support, and are being encourage to take, but the fact is they are inherently less suited to front line roles than men. There is the extra physical risk of women - rape is a women of war. Its important to understand this; including the impact on males on the same side. This doesn't mean women shouldn't fight. There are lots of women who are taking their children to safety across the border and then RETURNING to Ukraine. Or sending children with other relatives.

We can't escape this as a reality anymore than biological reality that women give birth.

This isn't about gender roles its about sex and biology. The two things are different and the conflation of the two isn't helpful. We need to understand and appreciate the difference and where it doesn't matter and where its an unavoidability reality that really disadvantages one sex or the other. Where are women capable? Where is sex holding them back unnecessarily? Where is sex an active issue?

Eg: Health care outcomes for men and women should be equal, but we do have different bodies which mean our symptoms are different, but investment in women's health is disportionately lower and less is understood about women's bodies.
Therefore all bodies are capable of giving us a good quality of life.
But the differences mean we have different needs.
Women are being underserved because of social prejudges not because of physical deficiencies.

At a time of sudden crisis, the rule makes sense, otherwise you'd generate a lot more problems just when you need as few as possible.

As it goes, the UN are reporting that 2 million have fled Ukraine so far. Of these 1 million are children. Many of the remainder will be elderly. That really does point to a hell of a lot of women staying too though.

Obviously I have explained in this country both men and women would be called up to fight

Why do you think this? Ukraine has a higher % of women in their military than the UK does, and even more now many women have chosen to bravely stay and fight. Logistically it is largely women in caring roles or who take the biggest burden of childcare, what do you propose they would do if everyone was conscripted?

Man gets shot/injured in combat -- other soldiers assess the situation before a rescue.

Woman gets shot/injured in combat -- many other male soldiers try to run to rescue her and more get shot.

Takes a fair bit of training to get rid of that mindset among male soldiers.

I hope that this is not ALL that your children are concerned about in terms of the horror of what is happening in Ukraine.

Also surely you have been educating them as they have been growing up about inequality, if this is the first time they have felt disadvantaged by being a man then that's good going.

If both men and women were conscripted who would get the children out to safety?

the Kindertransport? (yes, it is problematic, but that was mass evacuation of only children)

There is a lot about modern warfare that is done remotely and requires nothing more than what are essentially video gaming skills in some respects. There is still hand to hand fighting, and i - gung ho as i can be at times - never ever loved running at a bag of straw with a bayonet let alone trying to do that in the middle of a fight. So kudos to anyone who has done that. Seriously.

What i often say to anyone who comes out with "meh x is so unfair" is "well, y, and z are also unfair - how do we solve it?" and often there isn't a solution. Generally if a standing army is to have conscripts (something I'm not on board with) i prefer there to be room for conscription to include social-type things (as they used to do in Germany with the "zivildienst" and still do with the FSJ which is basically a gap year to work in places like hospitals, old people's homes etc - social work type practical help) and i prefer it to be open to everyone (usually by age cohort). Top tip: most career military groan when the idea of conscription is brought up.

Conscription to defend your country is a whole other matter, and yes, it is often about either logistics (drive truck from a to b, try not to die) or cannon fodder (hold this position as long as you can, yes that is a tank coming)

The question other European countries might like to start asking themselves is: should we be preparing ourselves just in case something does happen? And run the risk of spreading alarm among the population. When all the refugees seem to be fleeing from East-ish to West - the UK and Ireland look like the end of the line anyway, where would we go?

Regarding Battle Hungry Women Leaders Of the Past. Meh. I'm sure Good Queen Bess with her Tilbury shenanegins thought she was like a man, but she had advisors and was pushed into decisions just like any male ruler would have been (is my guess). Are there any genuine cases of (western) female leaders (Boudecia? sp?) who let slip the dogs of war? or was it more of a group decision?

how can we argue with a straight face that adult women are too weak to fight? Being weaker doesn’t mean too weak

I'll confess to being horrendously weak physically! Always have been. Zero upper body strength...couldn't even do the monkey bars in the playground as a child! My 13 year old ds challenged me to an arm wrestle and won in seconds!

Well I won’t be going to war. Women are built differently to men and I’m not particularly strong or fit. I wouldn’t stand a chance. This war was started by men.

There is a lot about modern warfare that is done remotely and requires nothing more than what are essentially video gaming skills in some respects.

Ah the ignorance, wtf.

There is a lot about modern warfare that is done remotely and requires nothing more than what are essentially video gaming skills in some respects.

The amount of this sort of warfare being done by Ukrainian conscripts is exactly zero.

It’s strange there’s a lot of women saying men should fight and not women because women are still not equal and do more in other areas like child rearing - and yet they are all for pushing for that to change and for men to do more in those traditionally female domains, so it’s odd that here in a real life situation when given the chance to advocate for the opposite - that is for women to take up a hard male role, they are against women it for the reason that women aren’t equal and society isn’t equitable.
Seems they are all for pushing for men to be more equal and equitable in areas which would help them - but not the reverse.

Of course none of that matters, nor does the argument that more women are needed to replenish the population as that’s never been a conscious choice made as a reason for women not to fight.

The simple truth is women suck at fighting and killing compared to men and it’s not close. It’s biological. Humans aren’t a species like wolves were both are capable of a lot of violence, there’s a big big difference.

But not so weak we cannot engage in modern warfare. Come on, we have child soldiers in many parts of the world. (Which is abhorrent). But since even children ARE fighting in wars, how can we argue with a straight face that adult women are too weak to fight? Being weaker doesn’t mean too weak.

I do agree with the being weaker doesn't mean too weak, but it's pretty much like putting lambs to slaughter.
My nephew isn't 13 until next week but he's already 4 inches taller and around 2 stone heavier than me.
I was amazed to be honest when I realised I would have absolutely no chance of physically restraining a 12 year old boy.

Most children have two parents. A male and a female. You can't take both parents away. And most men are better at fighting, and most women are better at keeping children calm.
They're fighting for their very existence, could we maybe lay off the supposed sexism a bit?

I believe children should be taught to think instead of told what to think.

Woman gets shot/injured in combat -- many other male soldiers try to run to rescue her and more get shot.

and women get the blame for that? why?

Most women in the military work very hard on many fronts to be accepted by their male colleagues/superiors/subordinates. Very bloody hard in the face of some really quite awful pushback in many cases. They are not asking to be picked up and carried back to the first aid station (any more than any injured person on a battlefield would) And assuming that a) female soldiers want to be picked up and rescued and tha b) male soldiers would automatically do that is the result of batshit gender roles being forced on children implicitly and explicitly from a young age.

I keep coming back to OPs My boys are upset at the thought that only men are being made to fight in Ukraine and not women. They think it’s very unfair.
How old are they, OP? how old are your girls (if you don't mind sharing . even primary/secondary age) "unfair" is difficult to counter, to be honest, as things often seem unfair to a person affected by something but not observers.

Ah the ignorance, wtf.

No. I did go on to say that this isn't what conscripts do. I come from a hugely military family, thanks. I am acutely aware of what happens in war.
Oh the assumptions, wtf.

@unname

I believe children should be taught to think instead of told what to think.

This.

@Brefugee

Ah the ignorance, wtf.

No. I did go on to say that this isn't what conscripts do. I come from a hugely military family, thanks. I am acutely aware of what happens in war.
Oh the assumptions, wtf.

I mean ignorance around it being like video games, absolutely none of the tech is.

@BigOlDingleSlinger69 I agree with your comments but the time to push for men to take on more caring responsibility is perhaps not at crisis/ war point. It’s a case of literally pick your battles.

I mean ignorance around it being like video games, absolutely none of the tech is.

well, we will diagree on that. And my friends who have told me exactly this about some aspects of their work will continue to likening it to playing video games.

It’s strange there’s a lot of women saying men should fight and not women because women are still not equal and do more in other areas like child rearing - and yet they are all for pushing for that to change and for men to do more in those traditionally female domains, so it’s odd that here in a real life situation when given the chance to advocate for the opposite - that is for women to take up a hard male role, they are against women it for the reason that women aren’t equal and society isn’t equitable.
Seems they are all for pushing for men to be more equal and equitable in areas which would help them - but not the reverse.

I don't understand this argument. Things already suck for women so why do we want to make them every more 'equal' in a way that will suck even more for women ?

It's like arguing that men do most DIY, so as well as working, caring for the children and doing most household chores, women should also try to do 50% of the DIY as well. So that they're 'equal' to men in doing DIY at least. Even if they already do 80% of everything else.

In normal day-to-day life, women more than pull their weight. I can't understand the fuss about them making less of a contribution in warfare tbh.

I’ve not RTFT but wanted to say that I have distant relatives who are currently in Ukraine. They say there’re in fact many many woman who fight alongside men - according to them 30-40% or so

Women are carers and nurturers and men are protectors and providers. That is still how the vast majority of the world sees men and women both traditionally and now.

That is why women go first in many situations, and men are expected to walk on the outside of the sidewalk to protect women. Women are generally seen as less capable outside of domestic and childcare realms.

As much as there is talk of equality, few live it when push comes to shove. Men are seen as disposable and replaceable, women are not as they bear children. Work related deaths are much higher for men, they have always been expected to work higher risk roles and to be willing to die to support and protect their women and children. Not only in war but it is men in the mines and on top of turbines and doing jobs where there is greater occupational risk.

@MiniDaffodils

I have brought them up to think that periods shouldn’t hold any one back. That child rearing is shared equally between men and women (except for the first few months when the women is possibly breast feeding). Also that whilst men are physically stronger that isn’t necessarily a disadvantage in modern combat which relies more on weapons than brute strength.

I don’t feel comfortable saying that actually women can’t go onto the forces because they are physically weaker and have periods - I don’t think that it holds weight as an argument anymore.

I assumed as men and women are both serving in the forces now that both sexes would be conscripted if needed in this country.

Thing is OP that just isn’t true. I’ve done quite a bit of training in the territorial army and I can confirm that being shorter and physically weaker than the men is a MASSIVE MASSIVE disadvantage in combat. The kit is heavy you know! And don’t get me started in trying to sort out tampons in a muddy ditch in the middle of an exercise, it wasn’t great. Frankly. where men and women are doing mixed-sex army training, the women are nowhere near as much use to the group as the men. Might be a little different in the RAF/Navy but in the army physical strength still counts for a hell of a lot. I could barely manage my own pack, let alone all the other kit I was supposed to help carry.

As for childrearing being shared equally, I don’t know what planet you’re on but it is not the one I live on 🤣

Also, most women round the world don’t breastfeed for “a couple of months” - two years is best for the baby, and that is what a lot of women do (including me). It’s less common in USA/UK I know but they’re a pretty small proportion of the whole world.

If you have taught your sons that genuine equality in every aspect of life (including war and childcare) exists, and is real everywhere, then you have taught them a lie and I’m not surprised they are unable to understand war.