The Invasion is ongoing...Part 8

[Damnloginpopup]

Following on...

And must have also existed the other way, when Germany invaded Russia in WW2. Obviously doesn’t bit justify what happened in Berlin. So many women. Unimaginable

The Eastern Front was horrendous. I think that Germany and Russia saw each other as sub human - with all the horrendous consequences. I also think there is a lot that people don't know about that. It was a fight to the death.

The reference was to the fact that the PP was attempting to turn this into a debate on immigration. The implication was that anyone who disagrees with him/her on the issue is somehow a victim of manipulation

You have just shown your lack of critical thinking there.

I think that many people will know about the Holocaust. Isn't this one of the reasons why Holocaust Day is remembered every 27 January? Lest we forget?

@workisnotawolf, totally agree with you. Sitting here thinking that donating money isn't really enough of a 'stand up and be counted' statement against what's going on.

Re soldiers attacking women , I think this is a wider topic probably not for this thread.

Un peace keepers in Bosnia ran sex slaves And gun/ drugs ring's. Charity staff on front lines use their position to attacks women's.

Protests outside of the Russian embassy. That's a way to stand up and be counted.

@RedToothBrush and other wise heads on here…

Undoubtedly Yelena Osipova is deeply impressive. Russia needs more people like her and she deserves all the praise she’s had in the press. What I wanted to ask about… the papers report she’s a survivor of the Siege of Leningrad, and her age as either 77 or 76. Suggests she’d have been born 1945 latest. But the Leningrad siege ended January 1944.

I’m really torn between “don’t pick holes, we need these stories” and the “truth telling” talked about upthread. Would welcome thoughts.

As an aside, if this lady was a newborn during the Siege of Leningrad famine and devastation, I can’t even imagine her mother’s anguish and maybe trying to BF and so on.

@Tigersonvaseline

The silly, my dd is also studying Russia at the moment.

But I think more need's to be done at primary school because many DC don't choose history as a GCSE option.

I can only speak from my child's primary school, also DS is the son of a military soldier so war, war talk and loosing family to war has been part of his life sadly.

DS's primary did a whole week surrounding remembrance Day, they discussed in child friendly ways the history of WW2 and why we have armistice day, they also covered "modern" war like Afghanistan, but DS was allowed to be excused from this part as it's an emotive subject for him.

He came home with art work of poppy fields and a cut out of a "Tom" that he had coloured in. Also VE Day 75 which was last year seemed to really boost knowledge.

But yes I think History needs to be far more available, and someone up thread was correct about Tony Blair "education, education, education"

"But I think more need's to be done at primary school because many DC don't choose history as a GCSE option."

Or in secondary in the first two years or whatever it is before they choose their GCSE subjects. What do they do in those years?

@Scianel

The memoir A Woman in Berlin details the experiences of women there when the Russian army arrived, if anyone is interested.

You need to be in a resilient headspace for this one.

As well as Newsround, Horrible Histories is brilliant. I know there’s more focus on earlier history but they do cover WWII, the Civil Rights movement, etc.

There are also great podcasts out there too. Personally I listen to Dan Snow’s History Hit, Not Just the Tudors and You’re Dead To Me (my personal fav).

Also from a anthropology point of view there’s Evil Genius on BBC Sounds which takes cultural/historical icons and debates (between a group of comedians) whether the person should be considered Evil or Genius.

The amazing Bill Browder the very brave anti-corruption campaigner is on Iain Dale's LBC show. He is famous for being a massive early investor in Russia post soviet collapse and his partner was killed. He mentions this groundbreaking piece of investigative journalism. Well worth a read.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Browder

"Door after door in Britain has been opened for Evgeny Lebedev, all the way to the House of Lords. Who has opened them, and why?"

www.tortoisemedia.com/audio/lord-of-siberia/

Did you see they have halted the evacuation of Mariupol because the Russians are not sticking to the ceasefire and still shelling the town and surrounding area?

I’ve always said if I had the time, and money, I’d do an OU degree in History. It was my favourite subject at school though if absolutely no relevance to my chosen career (horses!) so I never went to Uni.

RedToothBrush my children all watch the news they are 4, 5 and 6yrs we turn off anything with graphic images but we discuss whats going on in the world in terms they can understand, they are much less fearful than their friends whos parents shield them from it as when it inevitably gets mentioned in front of them they are scared whereas mine can all hold a rational conversation about it.

I am rather annoyed by a message on a group chat about a group my 5yr old goes to asking that the children are to be told not to discuss anything about Ukraine so as not to upset any children who arent aware but can we all send the kids with donations on wednesday as they want to send a donation to a charity to help

@Dodie66

Did you see they have halted the evacuation of Mariupol because the Russians are not sticking to the ceasefire and still shelling the town and surrounding area?

Yes and Russia have just released on state media that the Ukrainians are preventing the evacuation....

I really wish someone would stand up in the UN and point at Russia and just yell "Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire!" 🤦🏻‍♀️

The silly,

Mine did the space race at primary but didn't cover million's of People trapped under socialist far left rule.
There's a lack of balance.

My DC know from me.

But I try and present things as a debate,the truth is never black and White.

I don't get heavy with them, many DC are extremely sensitive and internalise things,one of my DC does so one has too be very careful, not to lay the worries of the world at DC doors.

Im almost 40 so did GCSES in late 90's, i didnt learn anything about world war 1 and the only thing we learnt about world war 2 was about rationing and the womens land army. If it wasnt for the fact i love history and do lots of reading and educate myself i could quite easily be completely ignorant to anything that wasnt the industrial or agricultural revolutions which is all we seemed to learn at school.

@cakeorwine

It is interesting that whenever someone does their piece on critical thinking/echo chambers, the example given to illustrate the echo chamber will invariably be a position that they disagree with. "If only everyone could be open minded critical thinkers like me, they'd all have the same opinion and agree with me."

@cakeorwine

“And must have also existed the other way, when Germany invaded Russia in WW2. Obviously doesn’t bit justify what happened in Berlin. So many women. Unimaginable

The Eastern Front was horrendous. I think that Germany and Russia saw each other as sub human - with all the horrendous consequences. I also think there is a lot that people don't know about that. It was a fight to the death.”

Yes, this. And as PP said her Ukrainian older acquaintance was imprisoned by his own side for being taken prisoner of war by the Nazis - threat of that would have only fuelled the ferocity of resistance on the Eastern Front, with all the accompanying atrocities on both sides. And through all of this, they are ordinary people on both sides 😔

@DuncinToffee

GET YOUR KIDS TO WATCH NEWSROUND!!!!

Have you seen the many threads on here complaining about schools doing this?

But then MN does seem to have plenty of posters boasting about never watching the news.

Tbf I don’t watch it, I do access news and commentary through radio stations though eg R4 and Times radio

I feel I get more insight and expert views that way, the dc hear it so become aware and talk about it too

I really wish someone would stand up in the UN and point at Russia and just yell "Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire!" 🤦🏻‍♀️

they kinda did. www.bbc.com/news/av/world-60583924

@cakeorwine

At university there was a question-and-answer session with some members of the Royal Shakespeare Company and one of the 40-something actresses was shocked that her niece had never heard of the Holocaust

I think that many people will know about the Holocaust.

I don't think many people will understand how Germany got to the point that it was transport its own citizens away to camps and then murdering them in their millions.

And how those who forget history and don't learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.

Without being a cliche...
The poem "First the came for" is happening right now

As well as Michael Rosen's poem about fascism

michaelrosenblog.blogspot.com/2014/05/fascism-i-sometimes-fear.html

I sometimes fear that
people think that fascism arrives in fancy dress
worn by grotesques and monsters
as played out in endless re-runs of the Nazis.

Fascism arrives as your friend.
It will restore your honour,
make you feel proud,
protect your house,
give you a job,
clean up the neighbourhood,
remind you of how great you once were,
clear out the venal and the corrupt,
remove anything you feel is unlike you...

It doesn't walk in saying,
"Our programme means militias, mass imprisonments, transportations, war and persecution."

That’s a good poem

We watched a Jeremy Irons movie last night re Hitler and Chamberlain, the year before war came to Britain

That expansionist mindset and a few lines ‘they underestimate you’ and ‘I’ll lie for Germany’ seemed fairly familiar.

[quote NCdBcOuting]@RedToothBrush and other wise heads on here…

Undoubtedly Yelena Osipova is deeply impressive. Russia needs more people like her and she deserves all the praise she’s had in the press. What I wanted to ask about… the papers report she’s a survivor of the Siege of Leningrad, and her age as either 77 or 76. Suggests she’d have been born 1945 latest. But the Leningrad siege ended January 1944.

I’m really torn between “don’t pick holes, we need these stories” and the “truth telling” talked about upthread. Would welcome thoughts.

As an aside, if this lady was a newborn during the Siege of Leningrad famine and devastation, I can’t even imagine her mother’s anguish and maybe trying to BF and so on.[/quote]
A few possible explanations.

What is a 'survivor of the siege of leningrad'? In terms of definiton, it could officially be anyone who lived in or was born in Leningrad before, during or immediately after the siege before the armistance in 1945. We might assume its got to be actually before - but given the conditions immediately after and the horrors of it, it might have a wider official definition, certainly if her mother remained in the city throughout. People didn't really start to return to the city until after the war finished.

Also, is her age definitely right? She won't have a birth certificate (obvious reasons above). Not questioning this might be a lack of fact checking or reflecting what she says (and then how do you actually correct it?!)

Or she could be a liar. It depends on her personal history and how far this can be traced back. She does seem to have a known history and is accepted as a survivor though. (but there are examples of people who have claimed to be a survivor for other reasons only not to be - Misha and the Wolves is currently on iplayer and is a story about one such woman)

My answer is in simple terms, I don't properly know (I tried to look her up the other day as she was interesting, but not much in English Alphabet referencing her), but I also don't think I have enough evidence to discount the claim either.

How on earth could Ukraine ever gain control of the nuclear plant again?

This did make me laugh. Russians have a great sense of humour.

mobile.twitter.com/peterliakhov/status/1499341576518217730

I do feel terrible for ordinary Russian citizens who are going to suffer terribly because of Putin's actions.