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The Invasion is ongoing...Part 8

999 replies

Damnloginpopup · 04/03/2022 22:14

Following on...

OP posts:
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11
upinaballoon · 05/03/2022 11:10

I don't have time to read all the pages of these threads but thank you for the many sensible and interesting posts. I must do the little that I can do from here. Yesterday I was moved to see the fathers on the railway platform. That doesn't mean that I don't consider that some Russian soldiers will have died yesterday, men who perhaps had no quarrel with Ukraine and didn't really want to be there.
I have a little tin with morphine ampoules in it. It is left over from WW2. I could send it but I think it's gone by its use by date.

DuncinToffee · 05/03/2022 11:11

Seven days that changed the world
How a week of war in Ukraine unfolded and affected the lives of millions.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0bsc8v5/seven-days-that-changed-the-world

Jisforjelly · 05/03/2022 11:12

Does anyone know what happens when they won’t respect a ceasefire and continue shelling those trying to escape down the ‘safe corridor’? Which is apparently what’s happening currently.

cakeorwine · 05/03/2022 11:13

Protest in Russia and you may be threatened with having your children taken away from you.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49556593

Courts in Russia have rejected prosecutors' request to strip two couples of parental rights after they took their children to protest rallies.

Instead, Dmitry and Olga Prokazov, and Petr and Elena Khomskikh were warned.

The prosecutors argued that the two couples had endangered their children's life by bringing them to recent protests in the capital Moscow.

The move had caused outrage in Russia, where a number of people face jail terms for taking part in the rallies.

Both the Khomskikh and the Prokazov couples received a formal warning.

The courts also said they may still lose custody of their children if they went anywhere near opposition protests.

This was back in 2019. I can't imagine it's got any better.

NCdBcOuting · 05/03/2022 11:13

Putin’s spokesperson Peskov:

“Mr Peskov claimed the West was involved in "economic banditry" against Russia - and warned that Moscow will respond.” (Sky News)

Also Putin’s spokesperson Peskov:

www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/08/03/how-could-vladimir-putins-spokesman-afford-a-620000-watch/

What’s that about economic banditry now?

Newrunner29 · 05/03/2022 11:13

@cakeorwine

Social media has eroded peoples willingness to read more than a few lines and click bait is more attractive

Absolutely And without going off at a tangent, it's easy to manipulate people and form opinions and reinforce opinions. Echo chambers, just showing negative stories about a group, just filtering your news so you just hear one side, have major opinion formers on your side and you can get people to be passionate about a view and turn a blind eye when people get targetted.

It's what Hitler did back in the 1930s. It's much much easier to do now.

You don't even need bots to do it. You just need enough people in their own echo chambers who aren't that good with critical thinking and to see how they are being manipulated .

You can see the struggle now. For years, we have had people talk about the refugees fleeing war zones and the awful rhetoric towards them. Now we see refugees fleeing war zones and it's blowing some people's minds as they have cognitive dissonance as they simultaneously want to support refugees but have said they don't support refugees fleeing war zones.

The rhetoric has created a negative view towards refugees in parts of the media. Click bait articles, negative headlines, furious commentators.

This is what Cambridge analytica is all about being used in social media , where it used Date to find the suitable people and sent them targeted propaganda confirming their bias, they actually worked with trump campaign along side Facebook, there is bbc documentary that specifically talks to woman in charge and I belive they worked on brevity. I belive it was heavily funded by Russia
DuncinToffee · 05/03/2022 11:13

From the BBC

Evacuation of Mariupol has been postponed
The evacuation of civilians from Mariupol has been postponed, according to the Mariupol city council. It says the Russian side has not been observing the temporary ceasefire in place.

It says residents should disperse and find places of shelter, and that more information will be given soon.

A few minutes ago the city's deputy mayor told the BBC that Mariupol was still being shelled, and there are also reports that fighting is ongoing near the end of the evacuation route.

Hrpuffnstuff1 · 05/03/2022 11:14

Some of the soldiers are conscripts so they have to do a spell in the army, and some people enjoy soldiering.
However war and fighting aren't pleasant, it's not a fisticuff, you will be dismembered by the armaments used in war.
Ultimately if a humanitarian disaster happens with slaughter it's the men who are expected to stay and fight. I don't think diversity bollox is a thing in Ukraine. They don't have arguments or lectures on the division of labor.
It's here's your weapons now go fight.

Newrunner29 · 05/03/2022 11:14

They used *data

Febrier · 05/03/2022 11:16

I know that women (and children) are routinely raped in conflict, but men are routinely tortured, abused and killed also. They haven't been given the choice that these brave women have.
I'm not going to labour this point, because to be honest I don't want to dwell on it in my own mind. But I just keep thinking about the individual choices that people are having to make and live through.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2022 11:17

Re Finland.

WWI started when multiple defence agreements were triggered in a chain reaction.

Thus Finland being in a mutual defence pact with the EU creates the following situation.

Poland, Latvia and Lithuania are automatically is at war with Russia if Russia invades Finland. If Russia then attacks any of these, it effectively triggers the NATO defensive pact.

So a casade effect is likely anyway.

The problem would be something like a nuke strike on Finland. Thats going to obligate the French. But not the Americans and British immediately.

Theres also a command and control element here and a share intel issue though and that's probably more of a problem.

At this i note yesterday's meeting between the cia director and the finnish president.

Its suggestive of at least an informal bilateral arrangement and making a point of good relations publicly.

So NATO can't / wont put a load of preemptive troops in Finland if Russia was to build up troops on the border.

I note the following. The Finnish have landmined the border very heavily. They are one of the very countries in the world who refuse to sign up to treaties to get rid of them, despite significant international pressure to do so. History isn't forgotten by those who endure it and thats a very good example.

So yeah, Russian is perhaps unlikely to launch a land attack on Finland for that reason alone. And an air or missile attack can be responsed to by allies very quickly anyway. Including via Nato.

Finland also has compulsory national service so everyone has some experience of what to do if needed.

I doubt Finland is much more concerned than any NATO member for this reason.

There is just a practical coordination element to consider if the worst did happen - and the CIA talking to the Finnish President definitely suggests some talk of this is going on.

Basically EU does not equal NATO, but an attack on the EU almost certainly means the NATO defence pact gets triggered in a domino effect. All those concerned have a reasonable level of understanding of this.

cakeorwine · 05/03/2022 11:18

History isn't forgotten by those who endure it and thats a very good example

True.

TheSillyMastiff · 05/03/2022 11:19

Some women are staying in Ukraine to support and fight, those without children, those who are able.

Some women are forced to flee because they have children to care for.

Many are leaving because their husbands and partners are begging them to do so, because of the historic issues with the Russian army and attacking and raping women to death.

The majority of women are not as physically capable as men, the majority are not as strong or have the same level of endurance. They become an operational liability when they start falling behind.

Monitaurus · 05/03/2022 11:19

[quote workisnotawolf]Does anyone know what India are doing about their 20,000 students that are normally in Ukraine studying?
twitter.com/ndtv/status/1499671454144737280[/quote]
There was an interview with an Indian medical student last night on one of the UK news channels . He is holed up with many others in a city on the east side of Ukraine. No we do not know what India is proposing to do to get their brightest and best out. But India’s apparent absence in this situation is shocking.

Ijsbear · 05/03/2022 11:19

@Tigersonvaseline

Sunnier days.

Maybe it's safer to deny it . maybe they shut their Dc down because they don't want them bandying it about and ending up in jail for 15 years!!

If I was in Russia I'm not sure what I would be encouraging my DC to say to stay out of prison.

Re honouring ceasefire apparently civilians have been shelled in mariapol

If Russian communications on the ground are as poor as seems to be indicated, I wonder if news of the ceasefire hasn't got through?

Poorly trained troops who have sustained losses might not be able to hold to military discipline. I suspect soldiers who are experiencing combat and losses for the first time react differently to already-experienced men. Part of military training should be (and hopefully is, in the west?) how to handle losses without taking it out on civilians. But I imagine some of the young Russian men who never expected to be in this situation feel in desperate danger and angry and ... shoot.

(just in case anyone thinks I'm on the Russian side I'm not, and have registered to take a Ukrainian family when they start filtering up to the Netherlands. But that doesn't mean I can't see it from several sides. The ones that really make me angry are the Russians who think it's all justified. But as others have said, they are the children of parents who grew up knowing to self-censor and not to encourage critical thinking, because it was way too dangerous).

Galdb · 05/03/2022 11:21

Is it still possible for Ukraine to win this? I am beginning to think everyone who wants to leave should be allowed to and if that means 44 million refugees so be it. As it just looks like Ukraine are fighting such an unfair war now

cakeorwine · 05/03/2022 11:21

Part of military training should be (and hopefully is, in the west?) how to handle losses without taking it out on civilians

Well, that's a whole other thread.

SpaceyCake · 05/03/2022 11:21

Thank you @RedToothBrush. Very informative.

Andouillette · 05/03/2022 11:24

Re critical thinking. Just a snippet from one of my DD returning from work last night. I won't say what her job is as it's not relevant but she works with a lot of younger people. She and an older colleague were discussing the current situation and some of the history behind it. The younger colleagues had never heard of Stalin, Himmler, Goering. One of them was baffled by mention of Hitler and didn't seem to know who he was. One mentioned that yes, he had heard the word Auschwitz but didn't know what it was. These are people who have finished school, have university places awaiting them etc.
How can we expect critical thinking when education (in Scotland in this case) is so woefully lacking? Why are they not being taught such recent history? That saying about people who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it seems all too apt right now.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2022 11:25

Btw the NATO / EU domino effect and Russian threats to Sweden and Finland if they join NATO is yet another reason why I stress its not about NATO and just a fracture issue to try and exploit weaknesses within both organisations domestically.

Andouillette · 05/03/2022 11:28

@SpaceyCake

Thank you *@RedToothBrush*. Very informative.
I second this, thanks RedT. Good on the Finns.
Kizty · 05/03/2022 11:28

I agree that it feels like history repeating itself. If we really can’t intervene through fear of starting nuclear war then that leaves a pretty precarious situation for the future. It just feels so wrong to leave the population of Ukraine to their fate

Ijsbear · 05/03/2022 11:29

completely agree @Andouillette

Poor education and poor critical thinking skills play right into the hands of govts who want to manipulate their people. Provide them with food, safety, entertainment and the hint of a big stick and you can get away with almost anything, historically.

Whatever else you say about Blair, he was right about "Education, Education, Education".

DuncinToffee · 05/03/2022 11:29

Susie Dent

Etymology of the day: 'stamina', the resistance to debilitating influences, comes from the Latin 'stamen', the thread thought to be spun by the Fates at a person's birth, and hence the vital impulse each of us possesses.

TellMeMoreHellebore · 05/03/2022 11:30

I'm worried about Berlin now. One of my children lives there and is living with a German partner.

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