The invasion is a Week Old...Part 7

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Unbelievable. Thread 6 is almost full, to be found here : www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4495271-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-6?pg=1

Still a fascinating and thoughtful set of documentation of our evolving thoughts, fears, questions, analyses and updates. And still a credit to the eyes, ears and knowledge of those on here.

Pinched from one poster on thread 6 whose name I can't recall:

Latest claims from both sides about casualties
Ukraine's army regularly puts out updates on the damage it says it's inflicting on Russian forces, which continue to press on key cities, particularly in the south.

We should stress that the BBC can't verify this information, but the latest update from the General Staff of the Armed Forces says that approximately 9,000 Russian personnel have been killed or wounded.

It also says Ukrainian forces have destroyed:

217 tanks
90 artillery systems
31 helicopters
30 planes or other aircraft
For its part, Russia yesterday for the first time gave a specific number for casualties it had suffered in Ukraine, saying 498 Russian soldiers had died and nearly 1,600 had been wounded.

It said it had killed 2,870 Ukrainian soldiers and "nationalists".

@MarshaBradyo

Quite a lot of emphasis on West mistakes rather than huge appetite of Putin

He’s committed - and probably has been for a while - look at the aggressor I reckon

Yes he is. Does all discussion have to begin with the statement that Putin is the aggressor and responsible? If so take that as a given from me.

My interest is if/how this could have been prevented, to the extent that it was within our control. It could have been prevented by not having authoritarian maniacs in charge of countries, but unfortunately we can't entirely control that. But we do have control of our own policies, what were the variables that we could have changed to alter his calculations. Deterrence could have changed Putin's appetite for conflict.

Or we could just continue to look no further than a step in front.

www.reuters.com/world/ukraine-confront-russia-intl-court-justice-monday-2022-03-04/

Ukraine and Russia will face off Monday at the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in a hearing on emergency measures sought by Kyiv to order Moscow to suspend military operations, with Russia's legal team weakened by the resignation of a key lawyer.

The case lodged by Ukraine at the U.N. court centres on the interpretation of a 1948 treaty on the prevention of genocide, signed by both Russia and Ukraine.

The court is named in the treaty itself as the forum for resolving disputes related to it, and Ukraine's suit argues that Russia has misinterpreted the treaty in several ways.

---

The court can order provisional measures to prevent a situation from worsening before it looks at more fundamental questions such as whether it has jurisdiction, or the merits of a case.

Countries usually, but do not always, follow the court's orders, which are binding.

@Onlyrainbows nuclear plant fiasco!?

What do you want to do with the over 70s, then? Shoot them all or just take away their right to vote. HOW DARE YOU? The future belongs to everyone who is still alive

I think you are overreacting a tad. There is a big gap between shooting everyone of retirement age and stopping them voting in the EU referendum. Unlike some older remain voters on here, my mum was the only one she knew in her age group who voted remain and she was furious about people destroying young peoples' life chances. We are all entitled to our opinions.

I think the west did not take Putin seriously enough.

My interest is if/how this could have been prevented

Yeahthat I understand that interest, over the last few days I think there’s not many actions that would have prevented it apart from maybe Ukraine joining NATO… But then given this was his main fear maybe he would have gone crazy at that point and just brought it forward. And they were not ready to join according to few things I’ve read.

He’s on a mission and I don’t think not doing this or that would have changed it - look at his actions, they are intense and driven. He will up the ante until he gets Ukraine or as close as possible

[quote LampLighter414]@Onlyrainbows nuclear plant fiasco!?[/quote]
Don't worry, the plant is intact, no danger from radiation etc. It is all over the news, but you said you don't want to read the news so I won't post any links.

I think I assumed they would surround themselves with the brightest minds in order to give themselves the greatest chance of success. In actual fact they surround themselves with people who are willing to say and do whatever is required to gain just a little more power and influence.

Why assume that? We have a PM who has surrounded himself with some particularly dimwitted people.

@MarshaBradyo

My interest is if/how this could have been prevented

Yeahthat I understand that interest, over the last few days I think there’s not many actions that would have prevented it apart from maybe Ukraine joining NATO… But then given this was his main fear maybe he would have gone crazy at that point and just brought it forward. And they were not ready to join according to few things I’ve read.

He’s on a mission and I don’t think not doing this or that would have changed it - look at his actions, they are intense and driven. He will up the ante until he gets Ukraine or as close as possible

Its not about NATO...

@alltheapples

I think the west did not take Putin seriously enough.

Too busy being Woke and faffing about Trans rights. Completely being complacent and taking eye off the ball. Fiddling while Rome burns.

@Peregrina

I think I assumed they would surround themselves with the brightest minds in order to give themselves the greatest chance of success. In actual fact they surround themselves with people who are willing to say and do whatever is required to gain just a little more power and influence.

Why assume that? We have a PM who has surrounded himself with some particularly dimwitted people.

Its not the dimwitted that are the biggest problem. Its the yes men, grifters and men with money that are the problem. People who are happy to cover up secrets and use secrets to get what they want. Then get knighthoods for it.

Its not about NATO...

Not sure if this is a correction to the post but I’m in agreement with those that think this.

It’s about taking back what he believes is his.

How could it have been prevented?

Taking Putin much more seriously - not allowing oligarchs to launder money through Londongrad, taking interference in elections more seriously.

But this did not suit our Government, who are now desperately trying to pretend that they are trying to find a solution, when in practice, they haven't got a clue.

@FatFucker I think this is the latest Flight Radar thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4490301-FlightRadar24-high-traffic-following-invasion

@alltheapples

I think the west did not take Putin seriously enough.

This still seems to be the case as talk of ways we could have prevented it doesn’t recognise the strength of will, and the extreme lengths he’s happy to go to

A comparison of Russian sanctions from Bloomberg.

Does anyone know someone in the media that will engage with this young Ukrainian girl?

www.tiktok.com/@dzvnks/video/7070815637085506821?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id7071180714892609030&fbclid=IwAR0ZNvUlCArXHMEWncDh-WmKrKauFXIS5Yp3x2ZCM66S-4UG13cNz0pSVp8

@MarshaBradyo I'm undecided. Does he not see NATO as intrinsic to the fact that he's having to do this in the first place and, therefore, a necessary evil to be removed? I wouldn't say it's about NATO as such...they're just an obstacle.

Pmk

@DGRossetti

When worlds collide. Maybe we need to send Stonewall in to check their thinking ?

The scare quotes are a reversal of reality in that headline. Which is part of the media problem that led to the situation being a shock for affected individuals.

I guess those leading the war effort are of the opinion you get counted in no matter what.

[quote HelpMeHiveMind]@MarshaBradyo I'm undecided. Does he not see NATO as intrinsic to the fact that he's having to do this in the first place and, therefore, a necessary evil to be removed? I wouldn't say it's about NATO as such...they're just an obstacle. [/quote]
This.

Nato are a pain in his ass to stopping him just merely taking what he wants. But they aren't the provokation, just the excuse.

Too busy being Woke and faffing about Trans rights

Ffs, give it a rest. You know, I'm totally against women and girls' sex-based rights being eroded, but people like you are killing the potential support. The world is currently in grave danger, people in Ukraine dying in their thousands, and apparently it's all down to not enough people doing enough to resolve your bête noire?

Seriously, rein it in

[quote HelpMeHiveMind]@MarshaBradyo I'm undecided. Does he not see NATO as intrinsic to the fact that he's having to do this in the first place and, therefore, a necessary evil to be removed? I wouldn't say it's about NATO as such...they're just an obstacle. [/quote]
I think the answer is in the having to do this part

If his prime motivation is to retake what he believes is his, at any cost, then I think it’s a lessor factor

He wasn’t provoked into doing it, just decided to go for it - maybe Afghanistan situation emboldened but hard to know, he probably would have done it anyway.

Christ's sake. I'm as gender critical as they come but is there NOTHING that MN cannot relate to the trans issue?!?!

[quote RainbowZebraWarrior]@FatFucker I think this is the latest Flight Radar thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4490301-FlightRadar24-high-traffic-following-invasion[/quote]

Fantastic!! Thank you!