The invasion is a Week Old...Part 7

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Unbelievable. Thread 6 is almost full, to be found here : www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4495271-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-6?pg=1

Still a fascinating and thoughtful set of documentation of our evolving thoughts, fears, questions, analyses and updates. And still a credit to the eyes, ears and knowledge of those on here.

Pinched from one poster on thread 6 whose name I can't recall:

Latest claims from both sides about casualties
Ukraine's army regularly puts out updates on the damage it says it's inflicting on Russian forces, which continue to press on key cities, particularly in the south.

We should stress that the BBC can't verify this information, but the latest update from the General Staff of the Armed Forces says that approximately 9,000 Russian personnel have been killed or wounded.

It also says Ukrainian forces have destroyed:

217 tanks
90 artillery systems
31 helicopters
30 planes or other aircraft
For its part, Russia yesterday for the first time gave a specific number for casualties it had suffered in Ukraine, saying 498 Russian soldiers had died and nearly 1,600 had been wounded.

It said it had killed 2,870 Ukrainian soldiers and "nationalists".

The West doesn't have the moral authority that they've previously claimed as part of the reason they've engaged in conflicts.

That doesn't mean it's more appropriate to align with other geopolitical actors such as Russia (never had a democratic transfer of power and a history of democide against its own citizens) and China (currently has concentration camps) who have actively appalling human rights breaches against their own people.

Sometimes we go with the least worst option and use the tools of democracy that are available to us. People might have to assess which geopolitical actors are likely to support the way of life that is most likely to allow them to thrive.

A thread that is clearly marked as being about the INVASION will inevitably include some context, which is what we are discussing.

Does anyone really think that reading a thread about an INVASION, the horrific results of which we can all see on TV, will make pleasant reading, or not include discussion of the most unsavoury aspects of human existence, tragedy and barbarity?

Some people don't understand why this conflict is happening, and they won't understand unless they understand the true history of all this. My aim is clarity, and my aim is true.

Sorry, but we really need to wake up and be less concerned with a few people's sensibilities and more concerned with our fellow Europeans being slaughtered. I make no apology. The truth hurts.

Jail terms over 'fake' army information in new Russian law

The lower chamber of the Russian parliament, the State Duma, has unanimously passed a law which makes it a jailable offence to spread "fake" information about the armed forces.

A total of 401 lawmakers voted in favour of the bill, with no votes against it or abstentions, Interfax news agency reported.

The law still needs approval from the upper house tomorrow.

If and when it comes into effect, there will be fines and jail terms of up to 15 years for those who intentionally spread false information about the armed forces that has a serious impact, according to a statement by the lower house.

BBC live

Remember Putin was a member of the KGB for several years, he’s a master of psychological war games , he’s certainly got the world scared!! We need that guy off SAS to go over to him

@ChimChimeny - there's been rumours of conscription even with foreigners/tourists and martial law so It just isn't a place you want to get stuck

I can't find any rumours of this apart from on MN. And it's clearly bollocks anyway.

Can you really imagine Russia rounding up European, Japanese, US, Australian tourists in Moscow, shoving an AK47 in their hands and sending them to Ukraine?

Musicman, yes of course there will be terrible events to discuss on this thread. Yes, I am probably being too sensitive about the "who was the worst mass murderer" top trumps element of your posts. Let's leave it there. I don't want to pick a fight.

Can you really imagine Russia rounding up European, Japanese, US, Australian tourists in Moscow, shoving an AK47 in their hands and sending them to Ukraine?

a month ago, we were told off for imagining Russia would attack Ukraine.

Putin being ex kgb is definitely relevant here in the context of what will happen under martial law and in captured cities under occupation and why Ukrainians might want to fight to the death rather than negotiate as if Putin is someone who is somehow reasonable and they can live happily ever after alongside Russians.

To suggest it's not relevant is to fail to understand the opposition here and whats at sake for so many.

Ros Atkins

THREAD 1/16 We all have so many questions about Russia's invasion of Ukraine that we decided to take an issue at a time in our explainers. I wanted to put them in one place. Here are 13 videos - starting with the scale of Russian gas exports to Europe.

twitter.com/bbcrosatkins/status/1499658285586206724?s=21

Some reassurance for those worried about the nuclear plant.

@RedToothBrush - Martial law. In simple terms the border closes so you are trapped. That leaves you in a position behind 'enemy lines'. Internment is a real possibility.

Martial law has nothing whatsoever to do with closing borders, it's the replacement of normal civil law in favour of law administered and applied by the Military. Borders can be closed under martial law but it's by no means synonymous with it.

And internment of citizens of countries you're not at war with is a sure way to start a war.

I've a lot of respect for you RTB but in this case you're spreading misinformation and hysteria.

[quote FatFredsFriedEgg]**@ChimChimeny* - there's been rumours of conscription even with foreigners/tourists and martial law so It just isn't a place you want to get stuck*

I can't find any rumours of this apart from on MN. And it's clearly bollocks anyway.

Can you really imagine Russia rounding up European, Japanese, US, Australian tourists in Moscow, shoving an AK47 in their hands and sending them to Ukraine?[/quote]
Its more likely to be foreign residents than tourists.

And its a good way to encourage nationalism. Its the whole, you are either with us or against us thing. Foreigners who have lived in Russia for years have to prove their loyalty and patronism. Obviously refusing to serve mother Russia means you are a spy. Therefore you can carter them off, and treat them badly because 'they deserve it' and let that be a warning to all others who don't obey the state.

Foreigners are easy targets because they are 'other'. It also creates a diplomatic headache for other countries if stories do get back home 'save poor Johnny the student'. It distracts from the bigger atrocities going on too.

Its a big swipe - if you don't support us, why are you here?

@DGRossetti

Can you really imagine Russia rounding up European, Japanese, US, Australian tourists in Moscow, shoving an AK47 in their hands and sending them to Ukraine?

a month ago, we were told off for imagining Russia would attack Ukraine.

Not by me you weren't!

Attacking Ukraine falls into the they surely wouldn't be stupid enough to do that bracket.

Conscripting foreign tourists would be ridiculous from whichever way you look at it.

@Olden

Have a look at this expert on Twitter, reassuring

His 'take' has been heavily criticised.

Its more likely to be foreign residents than tourists.

Maybe if they've got a few N Korean or Syrian nationals as residents it might be accepted.

Can you really imagine them conscripting a bunch of unwilling UK, EU or US citizens and it going well?

a month ago, we were told off for imagining Russia would attack Ukraine.

It was implied that I was a Putin sympathiser when I made a comment about Liz Truss going up against ex KGB man Putin. Strangely enough, those posters have gone rather quiet now.

Let them conscript a few Poles or Finns and see where it gets them.

Hope this will reassure people

Overnight a projectile hit a building within the plant site. The building is not part of the reactors. This caused a localised fire that was extinguished by the local fire brigade. All the safety systems at the plant were not affected. [There was] no release of radioactive material"
Rafael Grossi
IAEA

@DuncinToffee

Hope this will reassure people

Overnight a projectile hit a building within the plant site. The building is not part of the reactors. This caused a localised fire that was extinguished by the local fire brigade. All the safety systems at the plant were not affected. [There was] no release of radioactive material"
Rafael Grossi
IAEA

IAEA = International Atomic Energy Agency

@ClaudineClare

I don't understand why a pp had a pop at Germany? It is doing more than the UK as far as I can see.

Delurking, this article might help understand why Germany would be extremely cautious to be seen supporting military conflict.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40172317

Germany prefers a different approach to supporting Ukrainian, at least for now.

www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/emotional-footage-shows-hundreds-of-germans-welcoming-ukrainian-refugees-in-berlin-314689/

They were the aggressors in WW2 inflicting so much suffering and destruction on their European neighbours. As a result they are extremely careful and prefer more discrete and pacifistic strategies.

Zelenskyy begs the West to send military planes for Ukraine to use. thoughts?

Sad stories from adult children based in Ukraine trying to prove to their Russian based parents the truth. But the parents are not believing them.

How can you believe your government over your kids?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60600487

@Bellalastrasse

What has really hit me is how much can happen in a week. Last week Ukrainians were going about their position, as were we and now this. I understand it isn’t quite that simple and that this has all been in the background since 2014 but it is the sheer speed at which cities and lives are destroyed. I can’t quite get my head around that.

Yes this is what I think about a lot. Many of their cities are rubble now. It's so awful.

@Sunnierdays

Remember Putin was a member of the KGB for several years, he’s a master of psychological war games , he’s certainly got the world scared!! We need that guy off SAS to go over to him

Yes,Putin is well practiced, undoubtedly. Sending Novichok nerve agent to kill innocent people, polonium , people who disagree with him murdered “ By accident “

He’s a nasty man, heartless, power mad,
Wicked.
Evil.
Unspeakable.
What is the answer?

A flattened Ukraine, what use is that?

Hatefulled man.

Will there be 'intelligence' operatives from NATO/EU countries trying to disrupt the Russian State (or even take Putin out), or is that not how it works these days?