The invasion is a Week Old...Part 7

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Unbelievable. Thread 6 is almost full, to be found here : www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4495271-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-6?pg=1

Still a fascinating and thoughtful set of documentation of our evolving thoughts, fears, questions, analyses and updates. And still a credit to the eyes, ears and knowledge of those on here.

Pinched from one poster on thread 6 whose name I can't recall:

Latest claims from both sides about casualties
Ukraine's army regularly puts out updates on the damage it says it's inflicting on Russian forces, which continue to press on key cities, particularly in the south.

We should stress that the BBC can't verify this information, but the latest update from the General Staff of the Armed Forces says that approximately 9,000 Russian personnel have been killed or wounded.

It also says Ukrainian forces have destroyed:

217 tanks
90 artillery systems
31 helicopters
30 planes or other aircraft
For its part, Russia yesterday for the first time gave a specific number for casualties it had suffered in Ukraine, saying 498 Russian soldiers had died and nearly 1,600 had been wounded.

It said it had killed 2,870 Ukrainian soldiers and "nationalists".

Nazis - In moral terms perhaps you have a point. However, my "top 3 murderous bs" are based on the best available information regarding the numbers of people denied a full lifespan on this planet due to the actions of, or orders carried out on behalf of, or wars started by, the top 3. Morality is one thing, statistics another.

It could be argued that their approaches to mass murder were culturally predictable - Germans technical and efficient, Chinese barbaric and clumsy, Russians brutal and careless e.g. both Stalin and Mao ordered a certain % of those in a given area to be "liquidated" and didn't care who was chosen or how they were done away with as long as it was done.

Personally, I don't think that an efficient mass murderer is any more or less worthy of absolute and complete moral condemnation than an inefficient mass murderer, since the end result is the same.

I’ll keep banging the drum for the recent BBC documentary “Rise of the Nazis: Dictators at War” which explored the psychology of Hitler and Stalin, as well as those around them. There is a Dictator’s play book and Putin is most definitely following it.

I think if he agrees to talks it's only a tactic. He want the Ukraine, he wants the old Soviet Union back. And that's what he's doing - restoring the glory days with his ex KGB mates.

To have actually fought alongside or aided the Nazis in the 1940s you'd have to be at least 93 years old now, assuming you were at least 16 by 1945.

As an excuse for invading a country it's not the most robust.

Just wondering and not sure whether it has been discussed yet….I would be happy to take Ukrainian refugees in but checked online and apparently only Ukrainians with family members are allowed to enter the UK? Is this right? Checked again last night.

Excellent posts MusicMan65. British historian Roger Moorhouse has written a number of books about the period of history your posts refer to and was interviewed on Triggernometry this week. He references some of things you have mentioned.

YouTube - Triggernometry: Historian Roger Moorhouse Explains Russia/Ukraine Crisis

@Abra1d1

To have actually fought alongside or aided the Nazis in the 1940s you'd have to be at least 93 years old now, assuming you were at least 16 by 1945.

As an excuse for invading a country it's not the most robust.

To have actually fought alongside or aided the Nazis in the 1940s you'd have to be at least 93 years old now, assuming you were at least 16 by 1945.

I think it's more a case as "identifies as someone who fought alongside the Nazis" these days ....

apparently only Ukrainians with family members are allowed to enter the UK?

That is correct.

@DGRossetti

Yes, I agree with you. In numbers, Stalin killed 200 million through brute force and the gulags but when you look at the Nazi regime, it used doctors and engineers to calculate, research, create a plan that was then carried out so systematically. To have that much consideration as non military people makes me think where was the realisation of what they were doing? If rational, educated men deliberately, with full awareness can do that it seems more horrifying than Stalin’s army. But then I think of the things I have read about relating to Russian brutality and realise it was just as bad, it just wasn’t as focused on one group. I don’t know. The moral depravity of Mengele et al is what gets me.

@Birchtree1

Just wondering and not sure whether it has been discussed yet….I would be happy to take Ukrainian refugees in but checked online and apparently only Ukrainians with family members are allowed to enter the UK? Is this right? Checked again last night.

You mean Johnson and Patel might have .... lied ? No ! Say it ain't so.

Thank you PPs for the Mr Jones film information. I'll be watching that tonight.

In History at school we were taught a woefully simplified version of what happened in that part of the world. I am certainly learning a lot now

Russian soldiers are victims too. They have been lied to by their own government and sent to their deaths in a war they can't ever win against a population who will use any means to kill them, as I would.

Likewise the Russian people are also victims or their own government. They suffer the consequences of the sanctions and increased military spending at the expense of their quality of life. They too are fed on lies.

However, the Russian people are not being bombed, and Russian soldiers have the option to desert or change sides, so personally I'll reserve my sympathy for Ukraine.

This is what worries me.

@CaveMum. Yes, saw that. Very good. Also highlighted how he got rid of all his opponents so early on so the culture of submission was already embedded by the time he came to power. That was really interesting as not something really focused on previously. The power plays and strategising where they thought they were manipulating home and actually he was quietly building boots on the ground- very enlightening

MusicMan65 can I very gently suggest you perhaps start a new thread if you want a discussion about murderous regimes top trumps?

You can tell me to bugger off, but bear in mind that there may be people reading this thread who for very good reasons will not really want to stumble across your posts.

The moral depravity of Mengele et al is what gets me

didn't the Japanese do medical experiments on the Chinese too?

It's the moral depravity of humankind, really.

@Birchtree1

Just wondering and not sure whether it has been discussed yet….I would be happy to take Ukrainian refugees in but checked online and apparently only Ukrainians with family members are allowed to enter the UK? Is this right? Checked again last night.

Yes, and I feel completely ashamed of our response.

There was footage on the news last night of German people welcoming Ukranian refugees at railway stations. Crowds of German people standing with signs saying "I can take six people", "I have one double room" etc. More offers being made than there were refugees, and every refugee being scooped up and looked after. It was heart-warming.

And Johnson and Patel are tying themselves in knots to make sure we take in as few people as possible. It's shameful.

I actually also hadn't realised that he did the same as Mao and the Khmer Rouge and systematically killed off the intelligentsia too.

Its a feature of every ultra authoritarian take over ever. The intelligentsia are thought to pose a threat therefore they are one of the first groups to always be dealt with. This also enables the state to take over education in order to indoctrinate the youth.

We seem to think these things finished with Hitler and even Stalin. But the KGB and Stasi did some pretty appalling things right up until the wall fell. Its also been known for years how brutal russian prisons, particularly in siberia continued to be under Putin.

Putin is currently doing something of a purge by ramping up punishments for even the slightest indiscretion now. One feature of these regimes is also to encourage snitching on friends and neighbours - even if they hadn't done something wrong. So if your neighbour pisses you off with their parking, great opportunity to get shot of them. Those arrested for very minor things often under threat themselves they would say something about someone to save themselves or family members. It then creates a culture of fear, with people disappearing. People don't mix and they don't know who to trust.

Back home any russian with savings that hasn't managed to withdraw it in foreign currency (if they can spend it) or bought items with a traceable value is also fucked. Saved up for a house or old age? It's all gone. Inflation is at high levels too - maybe it will be a case of buying bread in the morning before it is triple the price in the evening as happened in Germany in the twenties. Being paid daily in cash. Employers will collapse. People will run out of everything. Huge crisis. Russian media will convince everybody possible it's the west to blame of course but won't bail their people out....Perhaps the ordinary russian on the Moscow omnibus will dig in or perhaps they will revolt in enough numbers to overthrow the leadership.

I posted one/two threads ago about my Russian in-laws. Now in their 70s they lived through the early 1990s collapse of the rouble, which saw their entire life savings reduced to, as MIL remembers, $90 USD. It affected them profoundly and for a long time. DH was sent off to uni with a sack of potatoes, as they couldn't afford to subsidise his food. His dorm-mates likewise turned up with sugar, beetroot etc. ILs now live as what MN would call preppers or homesteaders; growing their own veg, working their own smallholding, own water source etc, out of a desire for self-sufficiency. And yet they swallow wholesale the current "peacekeeping" rhetoric, and trust Putin's governance.

I don't have enough time this morning to set out in any kind of coherent way the stance of Russian mainstream media towards the West, and how that manifests even in ordinary times, but I hold no hope of older Russians revolting or even questioning. Younger people... that's a more interesting question. In DH's social circle every (every) Russian he went to uni with has left the country over the past five years. These are highly educated people who moved to England, France, Holland, Sweden etc rather than stay in Russia. But that doesn't leave them in a good position to revolt.

when in 1941 the Nazis invaded Russia, some Ukrainians did choose to fight with theme

The Finns also fought with the Germans. I don't judge them for that - they fought on the basis that the Soviets were a bigger enemy than the Germans were.

Tony Blair is trending on Twitter this morning because he cosied up to Putin and ignored what Russia did in the war in Chechyna.

[quote FOJN]Excellent posts MusicMan65. British historian Roger Moorhouse has written a number of books about the period of history your posts refer to and was interviewed on Triggernometry this week. He references some of things you have mentioned.

YouTube - Triggernometry: Historian Roger Moorhouse Explains Russia/Ukraine Crisis

[/quote] That was a fascinating overview. It's a 'must watch' with the Triggernometry interview with Giles Ury for anyone who wants a good overview of the background to current events.

@CallyfromBlakes7. Also Congo and Namibia

I agree Highland. Patel's pathetic excuses about security risks just don't wash when you see how other countries are opening their arms.

It was on the news yesterday that the Queen has made a donation to the DEC. It really irked me that a big deal was made of this. Why doesn't she really put her money where her mouth is and lend one of her properties to house refugees?

@Birchtree1

Just wondering and not sure whether it has been discussed yet….I would be happy to take Ukrainian refugees in but checked online and apparently only Ukrainians with family members are allowed to enter the UK? Is this right? Checked again last night.

Yes that is right, it changed slightly to include more family members but that is it.

@ClaudineClare

I don't understand why a pp had a pop at Germany? It is doing more than the UK as far as I can see.

In terms of accepting refugees, yes. In terms of sanctions and supplying Ukraine with equipment, their response has been verging on the insulting.