The Invasion is ongoing...Part 6

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Things are ramping up. No end in site as yet.

Link to thread 5 here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4494173-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-5?pg=1

Personally if it saved millions of people from dying I wouldn’t care if we gave half of the U.K. to France. I prefer human lives over patriotism and war any day

Yeah right you wouldn't care if you had friends or family living there. You wouldn't know if you would ever see them again and you would be very fearful of what would happen to them

The assumption you make is that you would know they would be ok. Thats lacking a fear that all males wouldn't be lined up and taken to camps or shot on the spot.

This will be a real and very genuine fear right now especially with what Putin has said and the language he has used.

There wouldn't necessarily be an assumption that where they are would have supply routes and humanitarian aid given.

One of the fears about Mariupol is that even if the Russians take the city, it will be just left. Remember the Russian troops themselves are lootung for food. If the Russians are feeding their own soldiers, what on earth makes you think they will suddenly make an effort to support civilians? Long term, under Russian control there will be a massive fear of persecution. One that I hazard to say is fully justified given the arrest of children and the very elderly protesters in Moscow this week.

One of the motivations to keep fighting is precisely because the Russians can't be trusted and have a poor track record on human rights. There is no incentive for many to stop, because it doesn't mean they necessarily have more of a chance to survive anyway.

Points like this are ones that are made by people who are safe, thousands of miles away from the situation.

Here's an idea: get all the oligarchs under sanctions and those soon to be, chip in,say, 5 million each. That'll make a tidy sum for the mere millionaire-general/s to eye Putin in a different light🥸.
As Napoleon said, give me enough medals, I'll win you any war.
It's all about the size of the prize, innit 🤓

@Xiaoxiong thank you for that link to donate to.

Like a pp mentioned, sex trafficking is a real worry for the refugees of war. War makes people desperate and vulnerable but also brings out the vile opportunist predators .

@theDudesmummy

My DD has friends in Russia (St Petersburg) and they are perfectly well aware of what is going on. The man is in his 20s and fears he will be conscripted.

Yes I suspect they'll change the criteria for conscription. I'd imagine a lot of young men are trying to leave Russia.

@CallyfromBlakes7
I can’t see how Ukraine can “Win” unless other Countries Join in, and that WILL be Third World War.
A few molotov cocktails will be nothing against the Thermobaric and other weapons that the Mad dictator is unleashing.

@Drybird2020

I've had a busy few days at work and am just catching up with these threads now.

I appreciate the links to articles I wouldn't easily have come across. Also I don't use Twitter and wouldn't know where to start, so links to significant items on there are useful. Thanks everyone - this is such an informative place.

I don't use Twitter much but I start following some recognised, verified people and then see who they follow/retweet and then have a look at them and so on.

These are good ones to start with:
twitter.com/bbclysedoucet
twitter.com/johnsweeneyroar
twitter.com/KyivIndependent

There's another one but I can't find him at the moment, but these should be enough to get you started.

Anyway, I've just seen this from someone currently in Kyiv who has been posting very regular updates and is freelancing as a journalist.

Tim White @TWMCLtd
The scene right now in #Kyiv, capital of #Ukraine.
A cold, grey and damp day.
Supplies are getting through, some shops are re-stocked. A few people and cars emerge from time to time.

#Ukraine's Head of the Armed Forces says the country is moving from Defensive to Offensive operations.

An interesting quote and may be pure propaganda. However in some places this has been evident, such as #Horlivka in Donbas. Elsewhere armed and unarmed resistance continues.

@alltheapples if we were attacked, WOULD NATO countries automatically defend? Or would they step back again for fear of what would happen to their own countries? We are an isolated island, not even part of the EU now. Might it be easier to just sacrifice us for the greater good in the same way as is being done with Ukraine?

Just spotted this - a Russian businessman has placed a million dollar bounty on Putin's head to have him arrested and brought in as a war criminal 'dead or alive' - also being reported on other news sites.

Wonder what would if a few more did this ?

I am a pacifist solicitor but increasingly I am all for NATO involvement, why are we so scared of WW3 when it is already happening? He won’t stop at Ukraine, he is backed into a corner, domestically and internationally. This ‘Russia as victim’ propaganda is starting a whole global narrative that doesn’t end at the Russian flag hoisted in Kyiv.

Exactly, swap France for Nazi Germany and see if people still feel the same way.

Good point.
There used to be an expression in the Cold War, ‘Better Red then Dead’ - not sure if there’s a modern equivalent.

[quote alltheapples]@Postdatedpandemic I don't know. Just repeating what the news are saying about Moldova.

@oakleaffy I find it really distasteful that people on the internet are saying that a democratic country should agree to give part of their country to the foreign country that is currently invading them by military force.
How would you feel in a similar situation in France was invading and killing us and strangers on the net were musing that we should hand over Kent to the French?[/quote]
It's the lesser of 2 evils, isn't it? Ukraine can't win alone, and nobody (so far) has been fool enough to support them because of the nuclear threat.
So either they cut a deal now, before another million people are driven out of their homes into, or they do it in 6 months time when the country is a wasteland.
(Occupation of Kent by France would be bliss but simply not fair to the north. Whole country or nothing.)

^What is needed is someone of the calibre of Claus Von Stauffenberg.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claus_von_Stauffenberg^

Who -despite being played by Tom Cruise - failed.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Valkyrie

Given Putin knows only too well the capabilities of his own poison assassination squads, the only question about the table is why aren't the two ends in different time zones.

Yes I suspect they'll change the criteria for conscription. I'd imagine a lot of young men are trying to leave Russia

and women. They've already changed the age. I posted yesterday about a woman who lives in Brussels and had gone to visit her family in Russia as she had just turned whatever the age was to avoid conscription. While she was there, Putin changed the age, but she still managed to get out via Turkey.

@Feelingthepinch22

What's being said about Moldova?

BBC News that a speech in Belarus seems to indicate Putin will target Moldova next.

@bluetongue

I’ve been watching a show on ABC Australia called ‘Foreign Correspondent’. It’s been all about the recent conflicts in Ukraine from 2014 onwards (which obviously are rooted much further back in history.) We like to think is one big democratic country but even before the current conflict it was fractured. It’s not like China coming in and just deciding to take over Australia because it fancies the iron ore and farmland.

Not saying that what Putin has done is okay. It’s horrific but it’s very much more complex than many realise.

I do think Ukraine need to make some kind of compromise. Maybe they will need to give Russia Luhansk and Donetsk. Maybe there will need to be an East Ukraine and West Ukraine.

As heroic as citizens taking up arms and throwing Molotov cocktails at the Russians is it will all end in tears.

This is what my family in the area are saying.

@DGRossetti

^What is needed is someone of the calibre of Claus Von Stauffenberg.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claus_von_Stauffenberg^

Who -despite being played by Tom Cruise - failed.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Valkyrie

Given Putin knows only too well the capabilities of his own poison assassination squads, the only question about the table is why aren't the two ends in different time zones.

Oh I know he failed, but at least he was prepared to have a go.

Fun fact - I heard that the reason that all the actors in Valkyrie played their characters with their normal accents is because TC couldn't do a convincing German accent!

One of the motivations to keep fighting is precisely because the Russians can't be trusted and have a poor track record on human rights. There is no incentive for many to stop, because it doesn't mean they necessarily have more of a chance to survive anyway.

This seems to be very apt. There are some many reports/videos/photos of normal Ukrainians joining in because really what choice do they have? They are screwed either way unfortunately.

And personally, I applaud them for it. The videos of unarmed people just calming walking towards tanks, in front of the nuclear plant, famers towing tanks etc. are amazing.

@Fiefofum

I am a pacifist solicitor but increasingly I am all for NATO involvement, why are we so scared of WW3 when it is already happening? He won’t stop at Ukraine, he is backed into a corner, domestically and internationally. This ‘Russia as victim’ propaganda is starting a whole global narrative that doesn’t end at the Russian flag hoisted in Kyiv.

Because WW3 will likely be Nuclear ☢️. Think Hirioshima, Nagasaki.

Not just people’s son’s fighting hand to hand.

Hiroshima

@CaveMum

Though I would add to my previous post that that I do know that Von Stauffenberg had very questionable ideals himself so he's in no way a perfect role model. I'm trying (badly) to get across the point that at least he was prepared to try and take Hitler out himself.

Glad you posted this because I was just about to reply to your misguided first post. I don't know what Hollywood were doing portraying CVS as some kind of hero, nor Tom Cruise either.

@Chakraleaf your family are saying they want to leave a democratic country and be under Russian dictatorship?

@ChimChimeny

One of the motivations to keep fighting is precisely because the Russians can't be trusted and have a poor track record on human rights. There is no incentive for many to stop, because it doesn't mean they necessarily have more of a chance to survive anyway.

This seems to be very apt. There are some many reports/videos/photos of normal Ukrainians joining in because really what choice do they have? They are screwed either way unfortunately.

And personally, I applaud them for it. The videos of unarmed people just calming walking towards tanks, in front of the nuclear plant, famers towing tanks etc. are amazing.

Yes Ukrainians have lived under Russian dictatorship. They know what they would be giving up.

Fun fact - I heard that the reason that all the actors in Valkyrie played their characters with their normal accents is because TC couldn't do a convincing German accent!

This is totally irrelevant as Stauffenberg spoke German with a German accent ...

And surely it's a form of aural (or oral) appropriation for actors to play non-native characters with a cod accent ? Just as offensive as slapping on blackface or womanface if you're digging around for things to be offended by ?

The videos of unarmed people just calming walking towards tanks, in front of the nuclear plant...

People need to watch "Gandhi"