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The Invasion is ongoing...Part 5

999 replies

Damnloginpopup · 01/03/2022 15:57

Unbelievable to think that a few days ago the world was starting to look more positive..ye we find ourselves on a fifth thread discussing the horrors of the war in Europe. An unbelievable change has happened to the world we live in.

Some incredible firmed posts have been written, informing, discussing, and occasionally derailing. Let's hope the news is more positive by the end of this one.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
kirinm · 02/03/2022 10:05

I've read some horrendous things today. A cancer ward of children running out of morphine and unable to leave the country.

I also saw something saying Romania had sent a lot of supposedly orphaned children to Israel where they apparently have a "new life". That doesn't seem okay at all.

I know why a NFZ isn't possible but jesus christ this is hideous.

vera99 · 02/03/2022 10:06

So true !

The Invasion is ongoing...Part 5
Thereisnolight · 02/03/2022 10:09

@vera99
I know you’re right but it’s hard to resist.

katem98 · 02/03/2022 10:10

@Thereisnolight

Is Russia very slowly closing in on Kyiv - giving the citizens plenty of time to evacuate - as Putin sees them as Russians and doesn’t necessarily want too many deaths. Would that explain the stalled convoy to the north, just waiting, and the lack of planes overhead and the noisy Russian march up from the south, leaving the western route still clear atm for those who still want to leave? Am I a wonderful armchair army strategist?
This did run through my mind, too.
Thereisnolight · 02/03/2022 10:11

Anyway, “outsiders” can sometimes be more perceptive than those inside a situation. Experts should be prepared to answer the most silly questions from newbies.
I’m very open to that in my own field, unlike some of my more arrogant colleagues.

kirinm · 02/03/2022 10:13

@RedToothBrush I saw an interview on Sky News last week with an ex RAF guy who said that special forces are most definitely in Ukraine and that the US had been training the Ukrainian army anyway.

He said something about it not being necessary to announce the presence of special forces like you would normal troops. Not sure how accurate that is.

kirinm · 02/03/2022 10:17

@Thereisnolight there are companies / websites / individuals who are fact checking and the news doesn't tend to broadcast anything unless it's been fact checked. That doesn't stop randoms posting anything on social media of course.

DrBlackbird · 02/03/2022 10:18

[quote DuncinToffee]Some light relief, funny video of Zelensky applying for EU membership 5 years ago

twitter.com/VeraMBergen/status/1498814410911006723?t=8pQ33i4mVd_llDGTbJUwDQ&s=19[/quote]
Actually, this is so sad.

Comparing that fantasy ‘comedy’ to today’s reality. Including Zelensky’s likely reality. I just cannot see how Putin would ever allow him to live. Far from his visibility and popularity protecting him, it makes him a more tempting target for Putin to demonstrate his unshakeable immunity and power by having Zelensky ‘removed’ at his command.

Alexandra2001 · 02/03/2022 10:19

[quote kirinm]@Thereisnolight there are companies / websites / individuals who are fact checking and the news doesn't tend to broadcast anything unless it's been fact checked. That doesn't stop randoms posting anything on social media of course. [/quote]
Like us you mean? no one knows if SF are in Ukraine or not, speculation isn't helpful.

vera99 · 02/03/2022 10:20

There are no doubt cobwebs blowing through the covid threads am surprised there are no total war prepping threads. But I guess the preppers must have prepped to the max unless you start digging nuclear bunkers which isn't very MN. Dadsnet if there is such a thing might be on that trajectory....

An interesting thread on how the propaganda war is playing out in Russia.
twitter.com/irgarner/status/1498334397904441344

kirinm · 02/03/2022 10:25

@Alexandra2001 I was commenting on what had been said on TV. I didn't claim it was accurate - in fact I said I didn't know if it was accurate I don't need to be told what I can and can't say but thanks all the same.

Notonthestairs · 02/03/2022 10:25

twitter.com/navalny/status/1498948871514435588?s=21

"We - Russia - want to be a nation of peace. Alas, few people would call us that now.

But let's at least not become a nation of frightened silent people. Of cowards who pretend not to notice the aggressive war against Ukraine unleashed by our obviously insane czar."

Navalny is apparently tweeting from prison. I wonder how many Russians can read Twitter at the moment. I think the use of the word czar is interesting.

DrBlackbird · 02/03/2022 10:27

dreamingbohemian

I wish people would stop giving credence to this idea that Russia deserves a 'buffer state'. This is not 1941. Russia doesn't need defence in depth to protect itself against NATO sending 1000 tanks across the Ukrainian plains. If there's going to be a war with NATO it will be nuclear. And in that event it won't matter whether Russia owns Ukraine or not.

What is it about NATO expansion that makes Russia feel weak? I mean, why on earth would Russia feel weak when they have the largest nuclear arsenal in the world? When they know that means no one can attack them?

Putin feels threatened by NATO/EU because it is a threat to his regime. Not to Russia -- no one is going to attack or occupy Russia. But it is a threat to his regime, because it makes him look weak and raises the possibility that people in Russia might also want a different leader, a different kind of system.

So when people say 'oh but Russia has reasonable security concerns and so Ukraine must stay neutral' what you are really saying is that a whole country has to sacrifice its independence so that a malicious old dictator can stay in power. You can dress it up however you like but that is the reality of what you're saying.

This bears repeating ^

Although I would add that NATO/EU could never really be seen as a threat even to his regime. His control over internal narrative was/is dominant as we see today. The EU dependence on Russian gas ensured mostly silence.

vera99 · 02/03/2022 10:28

@DuncinToffee he is a very funny man as well as very brave.

supermoonrising · 02/03/2022 10:33

@katem98
I think you’re right. As awful as the invasion is, Russia does seem to care more about civilian casualties than America typically does when it invades. Reports seem to be saying that the vast majority of deaths so far are Russian soldiers, and thankfully, thus far, front page newspaper pictures are of destroyed cars and buildings rather than people.

DuncinToffee · 02/03/2022 10:33

Re British SF in Ukraine, there is this report about Tory MP Adam Holloway Hmm

news.sky.com/story/tory-mp-in-ukraine-despite-uk-advising-against-all-travel-there-is-criticised-by-no-10-12555020

supermoonrising · 02/03/2022 10:37

@DrBlackbird
It doesn’t bear repeating. Expecting a great power to sit back and just accept it as a former neutral/friendly border country in the space of a few years (or a government coup) turns into a hostile one which is harbouring military and missiles from a hostile superpower is ludicrous.
No, it doesn’t give Russia the “right” to take military action. But we knew it probably would. As would the US facing a similar scenario. As would China.

MarshaBradyo · 02/03/2022 10:39

Comparing that fantasy ‘comedy’ to today’s reality. Including Zelensky’s likely reality. I just cannot see how Putin would ever allow him to live. Far from his visibility and popularity protecting him, it makes him a more tempting target for Putin to demonstrate his unshakeable immunity and power by having Zelensky ‘removed’ at his command.

I’m quite worried about this, in terms of how awful it is but also what it would prompt.

jgw1 · 02/03/2022 10:42

[quote kirinm]@RedToothBrush I saw an interview on Sky News last week with an ex RAF guy who said that special forces are most definitely in Ukraine and that the US had been training the Ukrainian army anyway.

He said something about it not being necessary to announce the presence of special forces like you would normal troops. Not sure how accurate that is.[/quote]
It is certainly the case in other conflicts that special forces have been involved without it publicly being announced. Whether that is true now only a very small number of people will know and they won't be telling us.

RedToothBrush · 02/03/2022 10:47

The more I think about this situation, the more I wonder whether we are miscalculating so much of this by not throughly understanding Putin's agenda and goals.

It became apparent very early on that Putin can't win the war, not in a straight decisive victory as he envisaged.

But he also can not lose the war. Both from a point of his own survival but also because he doesn't need to win it.

Like an abusive partner he can just take the strategy of 'if I can't have you, no one else can either'. He doesn't really care if he lays waste to Ukraine. Ukraine is neutralised by being devastated. So many of those fleeing will never return and thats just it. All Putin had to do was be prepared to committee cultural vandalism and displace ethnic and political opposition. Ukraine's economy is fucked for the next twenty years or more already. It hampers the West who buy huge amounts of grain. And this benefits Russia because it is a competitor in the area.

In terms of power, Western power has been strongest in soft power - money and media if you will. Globalisation is this. Yet this is the very thing that Putin sees as a threat. He has increasingly over the last few years tries to separate from Europe. He wants a splintering of the world into a more cold war era with little interaction.

Investment in Russia by the West is something he doesn't like. If we disinvest we also lose soft power in Russia. Contrast this with China who are doing the exact opposite in order to gain more soft power. (and we are completely fucking blind to it).

Our sanctions might hurt hard, but they also allow Putin to fracture from the thing he dislikes most - western influence. It, will in time, give opportunities to outside the west precisely because of its economic resources which we cannot sanction. Pakistan's agreement highlights that very early on.

It also forces the oligarchs to effectively 'pick a side'. They can no longer be globalists. They can either be Russian or not Russian. And the exit of Western investment does offer a vaccum of opportunity to be filling in the long term, if they can take an early hit.

Trump initially looked like someone Putin felt he could work with because he also drove this idea of America First which Biden has largely followed. There has been a stepping back from soft power at the same time as the weakness of Western military power has shown up.

I think the West really has lost sight of its strength in soft power in this sense. We are seeing an end to globalisation. The world has got smaller with travel being more possible but covid probably highlighted a lot of this weakness too. Long supply chains are perhaps less desirable as we see the inherent weakness in them and how they are perhaps a security concern. We've seen a huge rise of nationalism in the last 10 years globally and this desire to protect cultures from Americanisation.

Indeed one of the things that Putin sees as a weakness is this idea of the Anglosphere and how this damages French or German (or whatever culture). Brexit hasn't exactly helped that idea either

The Tory Party deciding to dismantle the BBC is also a complete bloody own goal too. It has been a massive source of soft power. One that commercialism weakens in terms of the state.

I also look forwards to what the impact of climate change will be. Greater food insecurity and energy insecurity for Europe in particular is a massive problem. As are migration issues. This compounds those long term issues. They aren't quite as critical for the USA in the same ways.

Russian will unite more around Putin in the long term I think. He just has to push through any initial shock. If he manages that, he consolidates his own position domestically.

Putin gets what he ultimately wants no matter what. Even if Ukrainians keep Ukraine now.

And I am not convinced that sanctions and disinvesting do anything more but accelerate a process that works for him long term. The problem for the West is doing nothing isn't an option in the eyes of their population because of shared national psyche and identity connected to WWII.

Postdatedpandemic · 02/03/2022 10:51

Was Servants of the People a fantasy comedy or the world's best ever propaganda?

RedToothBrush · 02/03/2022 10:51

[quote supermoonrising]@katem98
I think you’re right. As awful as the invasion is, Russia does seem to care more about civilian casualties than America typically does when it invades. Reports seem to be saying that the vast majority of deaths so far are Russian soldiers, and thankfully, thus far, front page newspaper pictures are of destroyed cars and buildings rather than people.[/quote]
Are you serious?

Russia. Syria. Chemical weapons.

The US completely lost the plot, but to characterise Russia as caring more? They just haven't been seen to be killing more (so far) in Western media.

StrychnineInTheSandwiches · 02/03/2022 10:54

As awful as the invasion is, Russia does seem to care more about civilian casualties than America typically does when it invades.

Confused
Thereisnolight · 02/03/2022 10:54

@redtoothbrush
Yes but in this particular case as he seemingly said he views the Ukrainians as Russians might he be planning a lower kill strategy?

RedToothBrush · 02/03/2022 10:55

Re 'the Nato threat' i actually think Putin fears soft power from the Internet, films and sport etc more because thats what turns the heads of young people and he can't control.

But he can't directly say 'im turning off everything none russian', without a pretext either.

NATO is the invasion pretext but the threat he really sees is cultural globalism.

Think about it.

(and I suspect that the likes of Abramovich are going to be waking up to this very soon, if they haven't already).