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If you are Russian what is your opinion on Ukraine situation and Russia stance?

158 replies

Bohemianwannabe · 27/02/2022 16:19

As above

OP posts:
GingerScallop · 21/03/2022 02:22

[quote twilightcustard]**@MamaUmki* You cannot justify the war, that's obvious, but the amount of fake news spread over here is staggering* @Amrapaali agree the fake news on both sides is atrocious.

Could we have clear examples here please, lest we buy into the propaganda? To be clear; have the Russians rolled their army into another country or not and started killing?

@otille Yes sanctions are very unnerving, but we're trying to get through them with humour and 'it'll be all figured out' attitude. Nice that you find humour in it, how crass.[/quote]
How else are they supposed to deal with lack of necessities for actions they have no responsibility for or influence over? Fo you know what sanctions do? Like war, they kill innocent people. The influential rich people navigate them and often even make more money. Try and imagine have no access to meds, not being able to afford food, heating other basics because Toby Blair invaded Iraq. Is it fair on you? But that didn't happen did it Because.....the West is sacred? Perfect? So please don't pile on ordinary people who sins of powerful people. Its horrifying what's happening to Ukrainians. What happened to Iraqis etc. But that doesn't mean the people of Russia or UK should be indiscriminately punished

GingerScallop · 21/03/2022 02:34

@Papertyger

It's why it's really important to Keep making the distinction between Russia and Putin.
This. Absolutely this. I see many times in news, among politicians, everywhere where this is so blurred. Even asking athletes to make a public stance. We dont know their situation. Would you make a stance against a mad mad knowing your elderly mother could be carted off to prison and killed. Or your 3 year old niece might die in an attack on your family home. May be you are "so principled " you absolutely would. That doesn't mean those that don't are shits or automatically supportive of said mad man. The earlier the West stops lumping all Russians (apart from those protesting publicly) with Putin the better for the long term future in terms of a democracy emerging. Otherwise one anti-democratic will simply be replaced by another as it's easier for people to be rallied together when they are seen as collectively hated. Russians are not the problem. Putin, his core group are the ones responsible for what the current Russian government has done. And no, a polling of Russians in mumsnet will not give us a picture that reflects true sentiments in Russia
DancingBarefootOnIce · 21/03/2022 02:38

I’m suspicious of those saying both sides are as bad as each other when it comes to propaganda. I’d like an example of propaganda we’re being told. Anyone?

whumpthereitis · 21/03/2022 02:40

@Blueyellowribbons

I also came across some interesting views of Russians appalled by this war. They think the issue with Russian society is that it has never been fully “decommunised” after collapse of Soviet Union which aimed to be worlds’ superpower. So until this decommunisation happens, people would still mourn lost territories.
In part, yes. There is a feeling that the west danced on the grave of the Soviet Union when it fell, while ordinary people suffered. Under communism people didn’t have much, but they had, for the most part, stability. Russia is a country that has no real history of democracy, it lacks the infrastructure for it. While Western Europe was undergoing the Enlightenment, Russia was under the mongol yoke. The Tsars were autocrats, and the Soviets continued this tradition. As such, Russia did not transition into democracy, it collapsed into chaos and gangster capitalism. It did not receive the same aid other post Soviet nations did, it felt abandoned. Putin offered a stability, and a return of national pride.

I do not support Putin, but I understand why he appealed/appeals to people. It’s frustrating because I want to see better for Russia, but I understand it.

Blueyellowribbons · 21/03/2022 02:45

@otille Russian here. Do you know what it feels like to be Russian right now? Like it's 1941 and I'm both a Jew and a German. The world hates me (German) and wants me dead/wiped out from this earth (Jew).

Reality is that it’s Ukrainians who are being killed and wiped out from their homeland. And for what?

Blueyellowribbons · 21/03/2022 02:58

@whumpthereitis I heard similar views from Russian acquaintances before the conflict, they were grateful to Putin for making country stable and “great” again and despised Yeltsin when they believed the country was “robbed of”.

Blueyellowribbons · 21/03/2022 03:06

@GingerScallop
Papertyger
It's why it's really important to Keep making the distinction between Russia and Putin.
This. Absolutely this.

And is there any guarantee there is no next Putin? Is it really just 1 man who is holding in fear 144 millions of Russians? Or is there a circle of those putinlikes ready to step up and continue his policies if something happens to him?

whumpthereitis · 21/03/2022 03:08

[quote Blueyellowribbons]@whumpthereitis I heard similar views from Russian acquaintances before the conflict, they were grateful to Putin for making country stable and “great” again and despised Yeltsin when they believed the country was “robbed of”.[/quote]
Yeltsin was a drunk crook who sold Russia to his family and friends. You can thank him for the rise of the Oligarchs. When Putin came to power Yeltsin and his family were explicitly given immunity so they could never be held to account for their dealings.

They did rob Russia. They misappropriated the money given to Russia by the IMF to help rebuild the country, and embezzled billions from the central bank of Russia. They were opportunists and they bled the Russian economy dry.

DancingBarefootOnIce · 21/03/2022 03:08

@otille

I'd be more interested in how the Russian citizen is finding daily life now that sanctions are beginning to bite. *@Amrapaali*

Russian here. Do you know what it feels like to be Russian right now? Like it's 1941 and I'm both a Jew and a German. The world hates me (German) and wants me dead/wiped out from this earth (Jew).

Why were no sanctions on all brits and Americans when they illegally invaded Iraq?

Also we've been through 1995 when we had to queue for a bag of sugar, had empty shelves in the shops etc. We've been through this before we'll get through this again. Yes sanctions are very unnerving, but we're trying to get through them with humour and 'it'll be all figured out' attitude. Smile

You’re comparing yourself to a Jew in 1941, really?
whumpthereitis · 21/03/2022 03:20

www.repository.law.indiana.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1088&context=ijgls

This is a decent insight as to the mafia state that was Russia in the immediate post Soviet era.

Some more:
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/daily/sept99/yeltsin8.htm

demokratizatsiya.pub/archives/02-3_Waller.PDF

“Despite issuing numerous decrees, President Boris Yeltsin has not been part of the solution, but part of the problem. The West's reluctance to criticize his government or to condition assistance and cooperation seem to have encouraged criminal elements in the Russian leader's personal inner circle. Western fears of "undermining Yeltsin" by objecting to the presence of such people in power are having the opposite intended effect by playing into the hands of the extreme ultranationalists and Communists. Though never implicated personally in corrupt activity, the Russian leader appears to have protected criminal elements in the highest echelons of government.”

marvellousmaple · 21/03/2022 04:01

@Bunnyfuller

By assuming the west is being told the absolute truth you miss the point that ALL media are in some way aligned to political aims. None of us truly know what is factual or not. In the west, we assume ours is ‘right’.

Things mentioned in the Brexit campaign should have made this obvious.

And as strongly as we believe the collapse of the USSR and perestroika were the start of a brave new age, millions of Russians and ex Soviets are convinced their troubles were caused by Westetn interference.

In answer to your question: those in the east wish east/west would just agree to disagree, and they feel the current crisis is caused by western expansion

They were doing so well before those "troubles".
marvellousmaple · 21/03/2022 04:07

A pp who I couldn't quote from for some reason - said that people she knows in the UK still support Putin and think the war is justified. I always wonder why people are very keen to support their home country long after they scarper. It smacks of - well it's good for those people still there, it's just not good enough for me.

Snazzyjazzpants · 21/03/2022 04:45

@bevelino,

If they came from Ukraine as refugees that would suggest persecution in their home country. It's not something that normally comes up in conversation, but do you know, @lavendersquare, any details of why they left Ukraine? I recall there was a turnabout around that time from a pro Russian to a pro Western government.

GingerScallop · 21/03/2022 07:17

[quote Blueyellowribbons]@GingerScallop
Papertyger
It's why it's really important to Keep making the distinction between Russia and Putin.
This. Absolutely this.

And is there any guarantee there is no next Putin? Is it really just 1 man who is holding in fear 144 millions of Russians? Or is there a circle of those putinlikes ready to step up and continue his policies if something happens to him?[/quote]
Its not just Putin and I said in that post or the next, Putin and his core. I also made the point that if all we do is to demonise all Russians, we will only pave the way for the next mad man. He might be better or worse than Putin but it wont be a path to democracy. Hence the need to separate Russians (some of whom have suffered immensely under his regime) and Putin and his cronies

ABitBesotted · 21/03/2022 07:23

My very good riend in Donetsk, a highlly intelligent person in a position where they see what is going on, is following both Western and Russian media and says they are both "complete nonsense." The little that isn't mere propaganda is "superficial."

They are amused by the deification of Zelensky.

GingerScallop · 21/03/2022 07:37

@whumpthereitis this is an important statement you make and that most Western politicians or citizens dont seem to understand. That even when people want oppressive regimes to fall, it often comes with suffering and the attitude from the West is often seen as not caring and best but in most cases, as dancing on graves or even scrambling over the carcasses and spoils of the fall while others suffer. Iraq, Iran 1979-1990s, Zimbabwe, Syriah, etc. It often leaves a bitter taste and paves a path for the next dictator. In other proud nations (not necessarily nationalistic), there is also the feeling that such transition were pushed by the west not just for their economic (just see how many in UK and US happily traded with corrupt Oligarchs that shored up Putin) benefit but also as a cultural subjugation. Despite the idea that everybody wants to live like the West and envies the West, reality is that many want to modernise (Whatever that means for them) but also keep some of their culture and traditions including political traditions. They don't want to be enslaved by the West. Either way, the everyday people endure the hardest losses .

I am in no way supporting dictators but saying bullying rather than mutual respect only leads to dictator transitions not true change

Trixiefirecracker · 21/03/2022 07:43

War is never justified.

Knittingchamp · 21/03/2022 07:46

@DetailMouse

Why are "we" so convinced that out version of the propaganda is the correct version?

I'm not saying it's not, but we know the news is manipulated by our politicans all the time.

Isn't it likely that the truth is somewhere between the two?

No because we have eyes and ears and full access to the coverage and news feeds of monstrosities happening in the Ukraine from multiple sources. It is very clear that it is not somewhere between the two just as in 1939 it wasn't somewhere between the two. We have full access to all news so let's use it to support Ukraine.
Blueyellowribbons · 21/03/2022 10:10

@GingerScallop could you reassure that majority Russian do not support Putin but say they do just out of fear? Because from what I read on Russian forums and what I hear on their TV, is that majority fully support Putin. I understand on the TV it will be propaganda claiming this overwhelming support, but what about private forums? Russians say they can survive the sanctions for the right idea..that they have been through worse in the 90s

whumpthereitis · 21/03/2022 15:01

I’m going to generalize massively, because it feels like it’s way too complex and multifaceted an issue to detail fully outside of a dissertation.

Russians, in my experience, generally aren't engaged in politics in the same way as westerners are. There is no real democratic tradition in Russia, and unfortunately when Russia did experience the Yeltsin version of ‘democracy’, which was unbridled gangster capitalism, it was a shit show. This turned a lot of people off, and solidified that the ‘old ways’ (governance by an autocratic strongman that through force of will and brutality held together a huge, disparate country) were better.

For the older generations that lived through the chaos of the 90s there’s definitely a sense that Putin kept the wolves at bay, and restored order. He oversaw a period of growth for Russia, which saw an emergence of a fledgling middle class and a return of a national pride. That’s what his support base associates him with, and where the support comes from. They don’t see the monster the west sees. Human rights abuses? Well, generally information about those are quashed, but again, look at Russian history for the rest of the answer. It’s not like the concept of human rights has ever been particularly relevant to Russians. Lip service has been paid, but the reality has been quite different.

There’s a stereotype that Russians are fatalistic, and it’s a stereotype because there’s more than a grain of truth to it. There’s a resignation to events, because politics haven’t been informed by the Russian people, politics have been imposed upon them.

In terms of change, revolution, there is a difference between change coming about as a result of internal pressures, and change that comes about as a result of external ones. Russians already have the sense that they’re hated by the west, and this has been promoted hugely by Putin’s propagandists. A considerable amount won’t see sanctions as Putin’s fault, but an expression of western hatred in response to Russia standing up for herself (remember, they’re bombarded with the narrative that it’s the Ukrainian government that is the aggressor). That’s likely to lead to a doubling down behind Putin, and not a rebellion against him.

I can understand fully frustration and anger towards Russians. I feel it myself. Anger, also. However, I also understand, and there’s a compassion that comes with that. I’m lucky, in a weird way. I’ve spent a lot of time there, but I wasn’t born in Russia. My mother is Yugoslav and I was born in what was then Yugoslavia. I lived through the wars there and I’ve seen how countries emerged from that (not perfectly, but in a way that was arguably better and more open to the west, if not fully embracing of the west), and I’ve also lived (live) in western countries, so I have a different perspective to someone that’s only experienced Russia. My viewpoint is shaped by my experiences, and undoubtedly it would be very different if I was a Russian that grew up there.

It’s the oligarchs that will be a threat to Putin because he’s hurting their bottom line. He knows this too. I’m not particularly hopeful as to what will come after him based on any action by the oligarchs.

There is hope when it comes to the younger generation, who have grown up with the internet. That have meaningful access to different ideas, and streams of information coming in. I don’t bank on it, but I hope.

mathanxiety · 21/03/2022 15:06

@DetailMouse, well said.

I would hazard a guess that most people speaking confidently about Russian/ Ukrainian history know nothing about the subject.

I would also guess that most people speaking confidently about Ukrainian nationhood have always accepted that Northern Ireland and Scotland should be part of the United Kingdom.

whumpthereitis · 21/03/2022 15:10

I don’t like the analogy at all, but I have seen a lot of Russian hate online that parrots the rhetoric of the genocidal. Thankfully not from anyone with the power to put it into action, but it does make disturbing reading.

A lot of it is not from anyone with links to Ukraine or Eastern Europe, but teenagers in America that have taken the opportunity to detail their bloodlust based fantasies online. I’ve seen shit about raping Russians, exterminating them. About how they’re (we’re) genetically inferior, subhuman scum that need wiping from the gene pool, the only good Russian is a dead one etc.

Unfortunately Russians are reading this shit, and this is the type of sentiment that Putin will be more than happy for Russians to hear too, because it supports his narrative.

eglantine7 · 23/03/2022 15:06

@GingerScallop being of Iranian heritage I totally hear you about punishing the ordinary people with sanctions. So they are sandwiched between state terror and economic terrorism. The ruling class just get wealthier in the meantime and fan hatred of the West even more.

eglantine7 · 23/03/2022 15:08

Sanctions won't work long term.

Karenina40 · 23/03/2022 15:27

Do you all honestly think that western propaganda is the correct one? Do you honestly believe everything you see on TV re this war? Well what putin has done is very cruel. I believe it could have bee sorted by other ways. However, Zelensky is no saint, he didn't want Ukraine to stay neutral. He was pushing for nato membership which would mean, in other words, that USA would be able to control and threat Russia. Of course putin does not want to live under this threat from the west. In my personal opinion USA.poked Zelensky, then Zelensky provoked putin, then putin totally lost it under the pressure. But it is horrible because of innocent people. Russia and Ukraine should live in peace. Both countries should have different presidents.