Should people be able to officially identify as whatever they like?

[Whatdidisay]

With the news that Bristol university has issues guidance to staff on the correct use of pronouns for students identifying as cats (catgender) has it now gone too far?
Surely if someone seriously believes they are a cat, then they need a doctor and a reality check not pronouns and validation?

Nope. They need putting in the bin by that woman 🤣

Bloody hell, when I was "being" a horse my Mum told me to stop trotting and neighing unless I wanted grass for my dinner. Clearly I was abused and oppressed because she didn't recognise my true identity.

You can all call me Trigger from now on.

Stamps hoof, tosses mane and snorts

Except that the wiki that mentions catgender is not one of those resources that it points people towards for further info

Can you really not see?

It wasn't enough that people have been emotionally blackmailed ir threatened with their jobs to pretend they don't see what they see and use she for males and he for females etc

Yet that wasn't enough.. that got old..boring. we then got brought neo pronouns. And people are seriously meant to legitimately use made up words like zir, perself , nyan etc

Do you think it ends there ?

If a posters account of a yr ten assembly on furries doesn't convince you that we have all been taken for complete mugs I don't know what will.

ThereIsNoSuchThingAsRoadTax I want to reassure you that I generally try really hard to be accepting and supportive to the students I deal with. If a student told me their pronouns were he or she or they, I would do my best to remember and use them.

But I do think:

a) That list of neopronouns is ridiculous and makes a mockery of the whole thing

b) On a more serious note, I do have concerns about gender identity in Universities generally. We have many Muslim students (and staff), as well as students from very different cultures who are completely new to UK culture and have English as a second language. There's very little guidance for staff on how we ensure that female students (especially those from different cultures and religions) stay safe and have access to single-sex spaces, at the same time as allowing trans-identifying students to use the spaces they wish.

No its a clear link further up the page not far from where it says how important it is to use the correct pronouns for any gender.
Its a real reach to try and say they don't support the links they are suggesting people read, as if they would link a page they had not read and agreed with!

@Whatdidisay

No its a clear link further up the page not far from where it says how important it is to use the correct pronouns for any gender. Its a real reach to try and say they don't support the links they are suggesting people read, as if they would link a page they had not read and agreed with!

@ThereIsNoSuchThingAsRoadTax actually it's in the very first link on the word doc you linked to, in the second paragraph:

"Although it is most common for people to use the pronouns ‘she/her/hers’ and ‘he/him/his’, many people use gender-neutral pronouns such as ‘they/them/theirs’, and some people use ‘neopronouns’ such as ‘Ze/Zir/Zirs’."

The 'neopronouns' is a link to lgbta.fandom.com/wiki/Neopronouns and at the bottom of that page it talks about "Nounself pronouns" where catgender is given as an example.

@ThereIsNoSuchThingAsRoadTax

How many of you complaining about this have actually done any fact checking? As usual, this is just nonsense from reactionary corners of the press. Bristol Uni has published some advice to staff on using pronouns (which you can read here). That guide contains a link to a wiki page that explains neopronouns - this is the one mention of neopronouns in the guide. That wiki has nothing to do with Bristol Uni. Catgender is mentioned towards the end of the wiki. So, Bristol has not issued guidance about catgender, or even mentioned it. They have provided a link to a wiki for anyone wondering what neopronouns might be.

Thank god you're here, can't believe it took 6 pages before anyone even asked for proof of this bullshit. It's just utter crap once again that anti-trans groups are spouting in order to get a reaction. So much for the "what's your source" lot on MN. Thanks for posting the truth.

RoseslnTheHospital

@ThereIsNoSuchThingAsRoadTax actually it's in the very first link on the word doc you linked to, in the second paragraph

I am well aware of that. But linking a resource in the text is not the same as providing a list of recommended resources for further info. And neither counts as an endorsement of everything on the external sites - although the latter would seem to be a stronger endorsement that the former.
Both are done in the document, and the wiki is not part of the recommended list. The OP was complaining that BU was giving advice on recognising catgender ["With the news that Bristol university has issues guidance to staff on the correct use of pronouns for students identifying as cats (catgender) has it now gone too far?"]. While that is the hook that certain press outlets are using to whip you into a frenzy, it simply is not true.

@ThereIsNoSuchThingAsRoadTax

How many of you complaining about this have actually done any fact checking? As usual, this is just nonsense from reactionary corners of the press. Bristol Uni has published some advice to staff on using pronouns (which you can read here). That guide contains a link to a wiki page that explains neopronouns - this is the one mention of neopronouns in the guide. That wiki has nothing to do with Bristol Uni. Catgender is mentioned towards the end of the wiki. So, Bristol has not issued guidance about catgender, or even mentioned it. They have provided a link to a wiki for anyone wondering what neopronouns might be.

Any expectation of pronoun preferences is just as crazy. While everyone is entitled to their own self-perception, the moment you expect others to agree with that, is when a line has been crossed.

I don't care whether someone 'identifies' as a man or woman, but if I see they are clearly a man, I will refer to them as a man. As Matt Walsh put it, if everyone understands that it's ludicrous to have personal adjectives, why are pronouns different?

@ThereIsNoSuchThingAsRoadTax so the university expects people to recognise and use neopronouns. Without making any comment on whether specific neopronouns are more or less valid than any other. The whole idea of "neo" pronouns is that they are new and can represent a totally novel approach to how people represent their feeling of gender identity. I would presume that Bristol Uni wouldn't recommend that staff and students gatekeep what are acceptable "neopronouns"? I would think that the line is that people are who they say they are, acceptance without exception, no debate. So if someone says their pronouns are "nya/nyan" then that's what you must use for them.

You implied in earlier posts that it would not be a problem for you if a student identified themselves in this way. So it seems odd that you are determined to deny that Bristol Uni aren't asking for people to use any and all neo pronouns, according to how people identify themselves.

And of course the headline writers will pick up on the most unusual and unheard of neo pronoun to draw attention. That's not a surprise, surely.

[quote UltraVividLament]@ThereIsNoSuchThingAsRoadTax so the university expects people to recognise and use neopronouns. Without making any comment on whether specific neopronouns are more or less valid than any other. The whole idea of "neo" pronouns is that they are new and can represent a totally novel approach to how people represent their feeling of gender identity. I would presume that Bristol Uni wouldn't recommend that staff and students gatekeep what are acceptable "neopronouns"? I would think that the line is that people are who they say they are, acceptance without exception, no debate. So if someone says their pronouns are "nya/nyan" then that's what you must use for them.

You implied in earlier posts that it would not be a problem for you if a student identified themselves in this way. So it seems odd that you are determined to deny that Bristol Uni aren't asking for people to use any and all neo pronouns, according to how people identify themselves.

And of course the headline writers will pick up on the most unusual and unheard of neo pronoun to draw attention. That's not a surprise, surely. [/quote]
The headline writers are not simply picking up on the most unusual and unheard of neo pronoun. They are misrepresenting the advice that BU has issued - which does not mention catgender anywhere. It is a simple matter of the truth.

I don't understand why you have a problem with me wanting to clarify that point while also not minding what pronouns a student would prefer me to use. They are not contradictory positions to hold.

More to the point, this is really not an issue. In 25 years of University teaching, I haven't had to use students' pronouns very often. They tend to have names that work pretty well for both addressing them, and referring to them. I just can't understand why so many of you care so much about other people's preferences which have little to no impact on you.

@Kizty

Is that actually true?

Someone fancies him/herself as a satirist. Student claims to identify as a cat. Professor sets him up with the correct pronouns. Both are entertained by the reactions they get.

@Whatdidisay

With the news that Bristol university has issues guidance to staff on the correct use of pronouns for students identifying as cats (catgender) has it now gone too far? Surely if someone seriously believes they are a cat, then they need a doctor and a reality check not pronouns and validation?

Surely if they identify as a cat they would prefer to be seen by a vet?

Or a psycaterist.

Thereisnosuchthing
But they did!
they basically said use students pronouns, most people use he she but here is a list of more unusual ones.
They provided a link so people could see other pronouns that could be used at no time did they say read the link but ignore catgender cause that ones bollox.

I just can't understand why so many of you care so much about other people's preferences which have little to no impact on you

Of course it effects people. They are being asked to go along with something that shouldn't be their problem.

What about people who do not consent to taking responsibility for someone else's identity.

I dont go to church with them
I dont pay for their shopping
I dont wash their car for them

And I don't have to be responsible fir any course of action they decide to take.

Not anyones job. Or business except the one person involved

The world has gone fucking mad.

@Whatwouldscullydo

I just can't understand why so many of you care so much about other people's preferences which have little to no impact on you

Of course it effects people. They are being asked to go along with something that shouldn't be their problem.

What about people who do not consent to taking responsibility for someone else's identity.

I dont go to church with them
I dont pay for their shopping
I dont wash their car for them

And I don't have to be responsible fir any course of action they decide to take.

Not anyones job. Or business except the one person involved

When have you ever been affected by someone else's pronoun preference?

DH mentioned this nonsensical nonstory just now.
So He (caps essential!) is currently identifying as God (second person pronoun Thou).

@Whatdidisay

Thereisnosuchthing But they did! they basically said use students pronouns, most people use he she but here is a list of more unusual ones. They provided a link so people could see other pronouns that could be used at no time did they say read the link but ignore catgender cause that ones bollox.

No, they did not. Your OP: "Bristol university has issues guidance to staff on the correct use of pronouns for students identifying as cats" The section of the actual guidance that contains the link: "Pronouns are the words we use to refer to a person or a group of people. For example, ‘she/her/hers’, ‘he/him/his’, ‘they/them/theirs’. The pronouns we use for an individual are based on their gender and although we may assume a person’s gender based on their name, appearance, voice, or expression, and assume which pronouns to use for them, this may not always be correct. Although it is most common for people to use the pronouns ‘she/her/hers’ and ‘he/him/his’, many people use gender-neutral pronouns such as ‘they/them/theirs’, and some people use ‘neopronouns’ such as ‘Ze/Zir/Zirs’."

I dont believe in gendering the equivalent if asking me to pray with them to keep them.happy.

Compiled speech and beliefs affects everyone.

Compelled.

Not unless they’re under 7 years old.

The more stupid this gets the more people will realise that you can't be a woman by claiming to be one so I am all for it

In all honesty I find cats to be highly intelligent beings, far more so than many of today's students!!
Thank god I'm 60 and hopefully in 20 years give or take, I won't be around to witness anymore of this shite

I’m feeling the South Park episode where Stan’s dad turns himself into a dolphin should now be on the national curriculum