Should people be able to officially identify as whatever they like?

[Whatdidisay]

With the news that Bristol university has issues guidance to staff on the correct use of pronouns for students identifying as cats (catgender) has it now gone too far?
Surely if someone seriously believes they are a cat, then they need a doctor and a reality check not pronouns and validation?

How many of you complaining about this have actually done any fact checking? As usual, this is just nonsense from reactionary corners of the press. Bristol Uni has published some advice to staff on using pronouns (which you can read here).
That guide contains a link to a wiki page that explains neopronouns - this is the one mention of neopronouns in the guide. That wiki has nothing to do with Bristol Uni. Catgender is mentioned towards the end of the wiki.
So, Bristol has not issued guidance about catgender, or even mentioned it. They have provided a link to a wiki for anyone wondering what neopronouns might be.

[quote VaddaABeetch]@Snippysocks come over to the feminism board for more real life incidences of this.

We have self id in Ireland all a man has to is say he’s a woman to use toilets changing rooms& every unit else.

My brother was in a hotel recently with his 2 girls, 7&8. The girls came out of the toilets & told him there was a man in there. My brother confronted the beardy bro who smirked & said ‘I’m a woman’.

This is where I am what I say I am leads[/quote]
Oh no, I hadn't realised it'd had been made legal here in Ireland! You're poor nieces and that man is nothing only a creep! I have been saying to my husband that it will only enable sexual predators to have easier access to their chosen victim group, whether it's women, girls or even small boys, who are usually brought into the Ladies' by their mothers when they need the toilet! That's what I did with DS when he was small anyway, not that I took my eyes off him at all.
If a paedophile and other type of sex offender comes in to the Ladies' , pretending to be a woman, how can an ordinary woman hold off against even an averagely-built man? We can't!
How are your nieces now? They must be very wary about going into public toilets without an adult female relative now, are they? I'm sorry they were put through that!

Are they demanding provision of litter trays? At least no loo roll required. They can just lift up a leg and … do what cats do.

@ThereIsNoSuchThingAsRoadTax

How many of you complaining about this have actually done any fact checking? As usual, this is just nonsense from reactionary corners of the press. Bristol Uni has published some advice to staff on using pronouns (which you can read here). That guide contains a link to a wiki page that explains neopronouns - this is the one mention of neopronouns in the guide. That wiki has nothing to do with Bristol Uni. Catgender is mentioned towards the end of the wiki. So, Bristol has not issued guidance about catgender, or even mentioned it. They have provided a link to a wiki for anyone wondering what neopronouns might be.

Do you not think that if the University saw fit to include a link to that wiki page about neopronouns, they are happy for people to use any of the neopronouns mentioned within it? Or any others? That's the whole point of the guidance, to tell people that they need to ask everyone what their pronouns are and to accept whatever it is that they are told to use. Whether its a catgender "nya/nyan" or something more traditional.

That advice is making some awfully sweeping assumptions about the general applicability of the pronoun used when talking to someone - "you".

The neo pronoun guide does say it's about third person pronouns but I bet there are folk who want to specify a second person pronoun too.

RoseslnTheHospital
Do you not think that if the University saw fit to include a link to that wiki page about neopronouns, they are happy for people to use any of the neopronouns mentioned within it? Or any others? That's the whole point of the guidance, to tell people that they need to ask everyone what their pronouns are and to accept whatever it is that they are told to use. Whether its a catgender "nya/nyan" or something more traditional.

No. I would not expect any institution to 100% endorse every external source that they link. It is pretty clear from the guidance that the link is there to explain what neopronouns are. I don't see why you would think that counts as an endorsement.
But, why do you care what someone else's gender identity is? If they ask you to use nya/nyan how does that affect you?

But, why do you care what someone else's gender identity is? If they ask you to use nya/nyan how does that affect you?

Because a stranger or someone I merely share classes with wishes me to indulge them in something I don't believe in. And because its not actually my or anyone else's responsibility to do that.

My youngest DD wis in retail, they had to do a course, and were told if someone wants to identify as a toaster, you have to allow it.

But, why do you care what someone else's gender identity is? If they ask you to use nya/nyan how does that affect you?

I am an academic. Sorry but I am not going round miaowing at students. I am supportive of actual transsexual people but the whole pronoun thing has got completely ridiculous.

I very much don't care what someone's gender identity is, or what pronouns they want to share. I would refer to them by name in their presence, and by whatever I felt appropriate when referring to them in the third person and not in their presence.

Quote "But, why do you care what someone else's gender identity is? If they ask you to use nya/nyan how does that affect you?"

Because they are asking us to validate their batshitery and use pronouns that we do not believe in or agree with!
Nobody can be a cat, they must know that and to demand people address them as such is frankly a massive power trip for them!

@DisappearingGirl

But, why do you care what someone else's gender identity is? If they ask you to use nya/nyan how does that affect you?

I am an academic. Sorry but I am not going round miaowing at students. I am supportive of actual transsexual people but the whole pronoun thing has got completely ridiculous.

I am, too. And I understand that no one is asking any of us to go around miaowing at students. Bristol have merely provided a link to a wiki explaining what neopronouns are.

I thought this was a wind up when I read it this morning. WTAF?! I think it's actually a good thing as it exposes all this madness as being just that, which I hope will lead to more people questioning the whole gender identity thing.

Do these people actually believe they are cats? Or is a a sexual fetish thing like puppy play?

I don't understand how "cat" is a gender though?

Bristol have merely provided a link to a wiki explaining what neopronouns are

Why are a university even getting involved.

The studenst are what?.18+ they are adults they are longer in the primary or secondary education system where there us somw justification for attempting to guide children into functioning decent adults.

But adults. Stay out the lives of adults. They can indulge this stuff in their own time

I am, too. And I understand that no one is asking any of us to go around miaowing at students. Bristol have merely provided a link to a wiki explaining what neopronouns are.

You asked what the issue would be with using nya/nyan as pronouns if requested by a student, which rather implies that you would support that if it happened in one of your student interactions. "Nyan" is the Japanese version of miaowing.

@FOJN

So what if he applied for a job as a bra fitter? Would you want your daughters to be fitted by him in a private cubicle?

This has already happened, M+S if I recall. My memory is vague on the details, it was a couple of years ago.

I was fitted by this person. I felt very uncomfortable.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Bristol have merely provided a link to a wiki explaining what neopronouns are

Why are a university even getting involved.

The studenst are what?.18+ they are adults they are longer in the primary or secondary education system where there us somw justification for attempting to guide children into functioning decent adults.

But adults. Stay out the lives of adults. They can indulge this stuff in their own time

The Uni has offered some guidance to staff who interact with a diverse student population. It has nothing to do with indulgence. It is about respect. Something that is clearly lacking on this forum.

Respect? Really?

Outsourcing the responsibility for upholding and validation your own individual sense of self to unconsenting strangers the opposite of respectful.

That's the job of friends and family. Not tutors of adults, class mates u say how to in the canteen and hundreds of strangers

Quote "The Uni has offered some guidance to staff who interact with a diverse student population. It has nothing to do with indulgence. It is about respect. Something that is clearly lacking on this forum."

People earn respect, I do not respect an adult who thinks he is a cat, are you really suggesting that we indulge every daft pronoun request?
You do realise that people are laughing at this and it is actually weakening the case for pronouns when they are used like this?

@Whatdidisay

Quote "The Uni has offered some guidance to staff who interact with a diverse student population. It has nothing to do with indulgence. It is about respect. Something that is clearly lacking on this forum."

People earn respect, I do not respect an adult who thinks he is a cat, are you really suggesting that we indulge every daft pronoun request?
You do realise that people are laughing at this and it is actually weakening the case for pronouns when they are used like this?

Once more, the guidance that Bristol Uni issued made no mention at all of catgender, despite what the press have decided to report. I linked to the original document so that you can see for yourself. The guidance that they did provide is pretty basic and sensible. But of course people who want to undermine the simple message of respect for diversity insist on banging on about a minor detail on a wiki that the Uni has nothing to do with.

Respect for diversity?

Since when was a cohort of predominantly white middle class people diversity

Pronouns and the like is such a first world problem that people who are truly up against obstacles in theor lives do not have the time money ir energy to afford to spend time on.

Thereisnosuchthing
The guidance says it is important to use the correct pronouns for everyone, not just those who you know to be trans and/or non-binary.

It the goes on to say For further information please familiarise yourself with the following resources
So the uni is endorsing these links and suggesting that all prounouns no matter how daft are to be used.

My youngest DD wis in retail, they had to do a course, and were told if someone wants to identify as a toaster, you have to allow it.

But what happens when, instead of something neutral like a cat, or a toaster, or a bicycle, somebody chooses something really objectionable?

It's one thing rolling your eyes and indulging a miaowing self-IDing cat, but where do you go when somebody starts to identify as, say, a bank robber or a paedophile? If the officially accepted line becomes that 'whatever you ID as is what you ARE', how can you possibly criticise, much less prosecute, somebody for acting naturally according to what they 'are'?

Taken to extremes, you could well become the bad guy and an evil X-phobe for even expressing any disagreement with (or lack of endorsement of) the most appalling behaviour, much less outright condemning it.

@Whatdidisay

Thereisnosuchthing The guidance says it is important to use the correct pronouns for everyone, not just those who you know to be trans and/or non-binary. It the goes on to say For further information please familiarise yourself with the following resources So the uni is endorsing these links and suggesting that all prounouns no matter how daft are to be used.

Except that the wiki that mentions catgender is not one of those resources that it points people towards for further info...