New job wants my pronouns and I'll admit, I don't get it

[Igloo71]

Just to be straight up here, I will be doing what new employer has asked of me and provide my pronoun, this is more of a I don't get it thread...

So, new job for a national charity has shown me the standard footer text for emails, which includes pronouns. OK I'll admit, my instant reaction is that it feels a bit cringe, but just to give you a bigger picture, I'm very pro rights of all (this is a huge part of my job) so I will 100% comply.

But, now that it's been asked of me, it feels like someone is telling me to put Mrs/Miss/Ms in my footer which surely never happens, does it? Who cares if I'm married, so why would anyone care if I'm he/her? Why, just why?? I'd love to ask, but then it would sound like I'm questioning an entirely other rationale which I'm absolutely not.

Can anyone enlighten me?

But, now that it's been asked of me, it feels like someone is telling me to put Mrs/Miss/Ms in my footer which surely never happens, does it?

Every form I’ve had to fill in, job I’ve worked in etc has always asked my title - it’s never bothered me but I know some people can get upset about it.

I guess I have a feminine name so it’s not such an issue but a man I work with gets very upset if you say Mr when his title is Dr.

@grey12

People!!!! Just because YOU have a very traditional english gendered name doesn't mean everyone does!!! And personally I don't recognise gendered names in other languages 🤷🏻‍♀️

Person!!!! If it means a huge amount to you that English speakers know whether you have a male or female gendered name from another culture then by all means go ahead and add your own pronoun - I’m sure no-one will bother one way or another. To insist that everyone in an organisation does so is nonsense for all the reasons already given.

@GingerAndTheBiscuits

“I prefer not to declare my protected characteristics in my email signature, I’m comfortable with colleagues and clients using whichever pronouns for me they consider appropriate” would I think be the response I would use if this comes up for me. If I don’t just comply 😬

This. Which is the approach our whole tiny organisation has taken.

And don't get me started on "pregnant people".

@Baystard

Not everyone agrees with gender ideology and it hasn't been possible to have a proper debate about it. I don't think it's appropriate to, effectively, require employees to publicly take a side.

In my organisation we were asked to include pronouns because it helps trans people "self-affirm" a belief. However as far as I can see, the whole point of providing pronouns is that they want others to use them, I.e. in reality they want others to affirm their belief. Big difference. I don't see that it is an employers role to require any employee to actively affirm the belief of a colleague (unless they hold a GRC and are therefore covered by the Equalities Act).

It's interesting and I'm totally aware of self affirmation. In my previous role, I worked with someone who had transitioned. Without fail, I would never have referred to that person as the gender they had transitioned from. It's respect, isn't it? Common courtesy and all that.

But this is about me, like you've pointed out. In some ways I'd prefer to be known as by my job title (like Team Leader B or something) than having to make a big thing about my gender. It feels like I'm pointing out 'don't mind me, I'm having an off day, I'm on my period!"

My company (large, international corporate firm) encouraged us to add pronouns to our signatures a couple of years ago. Uptake is very small, I would say maybe 10 per cent of colleagues do it. The rest of us just ignored it.

As an aside, I have a foreign name so I'm 'missexed' (? I don't feel I have a 'gender') now and then via email and letter at work, 'Mr SecondhandTable'. I don't care at all, it's never bothered me. Why would it? In fact sometimes I think it's a positive thing as I've faced sexism from clients before when they've heard my voice on the phone and heard I'm female - things like assuming I'm a secretary for male staff members (I'm not! I have my own case load etc). That sexism bothers me much more than people thinking I'm a bloke.

Just tell them you don't feel ready to share your pronouns yet. They won't have any response to that.

Your majesty/Your Highness

If people can change sex then I can change my social class.

I find it baffling that you can work in an organisation that needs people tough enough to deal with refugees at their lowest ebb and navigate a hostile system and barriers on their behalf.

But also one that thinks people will faint and cry if someone accidentally calls male Alex 'she'.

I usually leave any request for pronouns blank. I dont want to answer it. I dont want to write a stupid answer and I dont really care what pronouns someone uses for me

I know you said you are not a fan of titles Mrs/Ms/Mr and others agree but personally I quite like formality. I don't feel a need to be matey with everyone. Whilst I don't have my title in my email if I felt so inclined I would. Writing formal communications I sign myself Mrs Fullname Cann or in some circumstances just F Cann.
So if I really really had to I'd be inclined just to put Ms so everyone had to call me Ms Cann. Then the power would be in my court to say "Oh please call me Fanny". And if anyone questioned it I could act uncomprehending and say "so sorry, I thought that is what it meant" and then forget to correct it.
Endless fun to be had that way though obviously in a new job you don't want to be marked out as either stupid or a troublemaker.

What happens if you Identify as Non-Identifying? In which case, it would be discriminatory against your rights to make you share pronouns, would it not (in the same way that there is often a "prefer not to say" option for gender / sexual preference/ race / religion on surveys)

@twoastars

Isn't it just so people know to address you as him/her/they when speaking to you or referring to you

When was the last time you used him / Her / they when talking directly to someone? If you’re talking about that person to someone else, they don’t know what pronouns you use! Compelled speech. That’s what this is.

Don't worry - it won't be long before organisations start to leave Stonewall and this sort of stuff gets kicked into the long grass.

Are you allowed to put "call me whatever you like because I don't really care?"

@FKATondelayo

I find it baffling that you can work in an organisation that needs people tough enough to deal with refugees at their lowest ebb and navigate a hostile system and barriers on their behalf.

But also one that thinks people will faint and cry if someone accidentally calls male Alex 'she'.

That's exactly my point. Thank you for phrasing it like that.

I'm sure some of my future client group might see those email footers and think WTF!!?

@ExConstance

I quite like the idea because my sector has a very ethnically diverse profile and I am unable to judge what pronoun to use just from the name itself on occasions. I always work out or ask how to pronounce the names but if you then use the wrong pronoun it would be easy to cause offence.

If you’re talking about a person who isn’t present, and you don’t know their sex, just use ‘they’. As in, “I emailed Alex last week and they replied that they don’t believe in socially constructed gender roles” Job done.

It's actually quite unpleasant, it's a form of bullying (potentially) and totally unnecessary for employer to fan the flames. I would, as a matter of courtesy, use the new pronouns of a transitioned colleague (and have done). However the fact that I worry about whether I might find myself 'in trouble' at work for questioning a policy says everything. Can employers not see this? People are frightened to disagree. In no other area would employees feel frightened to speak out. If they decided that we should state religion or political affiliation in our email then at least some people would kick up a fuss, and nobody would think less of them for doing so. But I worry about my career prospects with the organisation if I question the policy.

"Jo would like to meet with you at 4pm because xe wants to discuss next weeks quota. Xe also asked that you knock before entering the office because xie may be on a call"

Makes perfect sense!

@KurtWilde

Isn't it more polite to just use peoples names? Then there is no issue.

Think how ridiculous this would sound in practice:

"Kurt would like to meet with you at 4pm because Kurt wants to discuss next weeks quota. Kurt also asked that you knock before entering the office because Kurt may be on a call"

It's literally taught to primary age children that we use a pronoun instead of constantly repeating the name of the person/dog/car/whatever to make conversation flow better. Because it sounds bloody stupid otherwise.

Or just use they for everyone

As @Soontobe60 says it's easy and straightforward, this happens to me most days. It's easy and is all about grammar and sentence structure. I use 'they' or more often just refer to the person by their name.

Pronouns 'Your choice'

Later changed to 'Your choice - surprise me!'

And just to add, some of my client group have got bigger shit to deal with than knowing whether I'm male or female. Like dealing with the fact that they've just crossed the Channel in a dinghy and found themselves without a home,, their families, etc etc.

I'm shocked that your vulnerable clients who presumably often don't speak English as a first language would be put in the position of having to navigate this and feel anxious incase they give offence and worry about the possibility of consequences of giving offence.

If someone is in a room with me, they're unlikely to be referring to me with a pronoun, and if they did, as I'm obviously a woman, I'd be surprised if they used anything other than she/her.
If someone's talking about me in my absence, I don't give a toss what pronouns they use.

@FannyCann

And just to add, some of my client group have got bigger shit to deal with than knowing whether I'm male or female. Like dealing with the fact that they've just crossed the Channel in a dinghy and found themselves without a home,, their families, etc etc.

I'm shocked that your vulnerable clients who presumably often don't speak English as a first language would be put in the position of having to navigate this and feel anxious incase they give offence and worry about the possibility of consequences of giving offence.

It's interesting isn't it? Being honest and from experience, I doubt the majority clock it for what it is - they've got more on their mind than that. Also, a high number will be using translation services, so that might stop and not even reach your name, or just reach your job title.

I'd like to think none of my clients are anxious about offending us, how embararrasing. Wow, can you imagine? I suspect this is all for the staff and other professionals.

"And just to add, some of my client group have got bigger shit to deal with than knowing whether I'm male or female. Like dealing with the fact that they've just crossed the Channel in a dinghy and found themselves without a home,, their families, etc etc."

Exactly! People with real, urgent problems likely don't have the capacity or desire to indulge in these kinds of luxury beliefs.

As someone pointed out above, pronouns in your work email signature is not a neutral act, and may alienate as many of your clients as it pleases.