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Original poster

New job wants my pronouns and I'll admit, I don't get it

119 replies

Igloo71 · 21/01/2022 13:16

Just to be straight up here, I will be doing what new employer has asked of me and provide my pronoun, this is more of a I don't get it thread...

So, new job for a national charity has shown me the standard footer text for emails, which includes pronouns. OK I'll admit, my instant reaction is that it feels a bit cringe, but just to give you a bigger picture, I'm very pro rights of all (this is a huge part of my job) so I will 100% comply.

But, now that it's been asked of me, it feels like someone is telling me to put Mrs/Miss/Ms in my footer which surely never happens, does it? Who cares if I'm married, so why would anyone care if I'm he/her? Why, just why?? I'd love to ask, but then it would sound like I'm questioning an entirely other rationale which I'm absolutely not.

Can anyone enlighten me?

OP posts:

susansherry · 21/01/2022 14:14

I understand you!

Back when I was a computer science student, we had to create a website with a booking contact form that includes name, surname, email and gender.

I was told I was backward and ‘so binary’ because I only included male and female

IntermittentParps · 21/01/2022 14:15

@susansherry

I understand you!

Back when I was a computer science student, we had to create a website with a booking contact form that includes name, surname, email and gender.

I was told I was backward and ‘so binary’ because I only included male and female

TBF male and female are 'sex', not 'gender'.

grey12 · 21/01/2022 14:18

@TeenPlusCat

Unless you're happy to be addressed with whatever people think fits, I don't see the issue. This has worked pretty well for hundreds of years...

No it hasn't. Some people get offended for being called the wrong gender and other people get anxiety on whether they are using the right one 🤷🏻‍♀️

what we should do is drop the whole thing!!! No more "dear Mr/Mrs/Miss/wtv". Let's normalise "Hi" as a formal email starter

Whydoesthecatalwaysdothat · 21/01/2022 14:19

I wouldn't bother. It's woke bullshit.

I am a woman. I have a very womanly name. No one has ever made the mistake of calling me he/him.

ElftonWednesday · 21/01/2022 14:20

I'd give them my pronouns, but I'd say that it's part of my gender identity not to want them revealed to all and sundry in an email, because in my experience people sometimes treat you differently on account of your sex.

CloudPop · 21/01/2022 14:21

@TeenPlusCat

Unless you're happy to be addressed with whatever people think fits, I don't see the issue. This has worked pretty well for hundreds of years...

I'm entirely happy for people to address me by the obvious pronouns. I've got a woman's name and look like a woman. I don't think there is a risk of me being misgendered.

Original poster

Igloo71 · 21/01/2022 14:22

I've read the other thread, it's been helpful, so thanks for the link.

The email from HR was along the lines of this is the format we use for email footers, your name, your job title and then pronoun. I feel like I might just drop off the pronoun and if questioned, say oooops didn't spot that.

I just want to do my job, I'm good at my job. I don't want to be judged by anything which might give anyone ammunition. Funnily enough my first name is clearly female, but my surname isn't English and not easily readable by non-native speakers. And guess what? People generally say, sorry, I don't know how to say your surname. I don't want to offend you, etc. People are usually courteous and respectful and I love that.

OP posts:

TeenPlusCat · 21/01/2022 14:22

grey12 So now we replace it with people being forced to declare stuff on emails they don't want to, and confusing the hell out of some vulnerable people who can't cope with the cognitive dissonance of being told to call females he or males she? Doesn't seem like an improvement to me.
If people want to put pronouns then let them get on with it. But why force everyone else?

CloudPop · 21/01/2022 14:24

The thing I dont understand is, don't trans women aim to look like women and have women's names, and trans men likewise? I know a trans woman and it's very clear that she 100% identifies as she/her.

ElftonWednesday · 21/01/2022 14:24

Some people want to wear their identity and shout who they are to the world like a badge or t-shirt, but I don't think they should force everyone else to do so.

I'm obviously female, but what would be wrong with someone looking androgynous and not wanting to reveal what sex they are, if that's their choice? Why should they be required to remove the air of mystery?

Baystard · 21/01/2022 14:25

Not everyone agrees with gender ideology and it hasn't been possible to have a proper debate about it. I don't think it's appropriate to, effectively, require employees to publicly take a side.

In my organisation we were asked to include pronouns because it helps trans people "self-affirm" a belief. However as far as I can see, the whole point of providing pronouns is that they want others to use them, I.e. in reality they want others to affirm their belief. Big difference. I don't see that it is an employers role to require any employee to actively affirm the belief of a colleague (unless they hold a GRC and are therefore covered by the Equalities Act).

grey12 · 21/01/2022 14:25

People!!!! Just because YOU have a very traditional english gendered name doesn't mean everyone does!!! And personally I don't recognise gendered names in other languages 🤷🏻‍♀️

Original poster

Igloo71 · 21/01/2022 14:28

And just to add, some of my client group have got bigger shit to deal with than knowing whether I'm male or female. Like dealing with the fact that they've just crossed the Channel in a dinghy and found themselves without a home,, their families, etc etc.

OP posts:

OVienna · 21/01/2022 14:29

We don't have an official work policy on this but it is slowly becoming more common as people do it voluntarily. I'm in a big corporate environment.

I have never seen any pronouns given in these signatures that do not align with the individual's sex. I wonder if a trans/non-binary person would actually feel MORE vulnerable rather than less in this case. I venture you'd have to be pretty brave to be the first one to stick your neck out.

While everyone else gets to pat themselves on the back for 'ticking that box'. Regardless of where you stand on the biology of it all, it's very unlikely to achieve what people think it might.

I would just answer that I won’t be drawing attention to my SEX as in my experience it encourages bias and gender stereotypes. Thank you

This also. I won't be doing it.

TeenPlusCat · 21/01/2022 14:30

@grey12

People!!!! Just because YOU have a very traditional english gendered name doesn't mean everyone does!!! And personally I don't recognise gendered names in other languages 🤷🏻‍♀️

But so what? I have a gendered name, but over the years was occasionally referred to as 'he' at work because I worked in a 90% male environment. It wasn't a big deal.

If people wish to put pronouns because they can't cope with people getting it wrong, then fine. But leave everyone else alone if they don't want to.

grey12 · 21/01/2022 14:31

@TeenPlusCat

grey12 So now we replace it with people being forced to declare stuff on emails they don't want to, and confusing the hell out of some vulnerable people who can't cope with the cognitive dissonance of being told to call females he or males she? Doesn't seem like an improvement to me. If people want to put pronouns then let them get on with it. But why force everyone else?

My point was the opposite! Not declaring anything!! Not addressing anything, everyone is the same. No pronouns. Just "hi", talking about someone else that you aren't sure their gender call them "they"

Thirtytimesround · 21/01/2022 14:32

“I’d love to ask” Maybe stare at those words for a while, and reflect that in this new gender-based ideology, asking is forbidden and will cause fanatics to attack your career.

Obedience must be immediate and unquestioning, and simple reasonable questions must now be saved for anonymous internet forums.

Sigh…

Original poster

Igloo71 · 21/01/2022 14:34

@Thirtytimesround

“I’d love to ask” Maybe stare at those words for a while, and reflect that in this new gender-based ideology, asking is forbidden and will cause fanatics to attack your career.

Obedience must be immediate and unquestioning, and simple reasonable questions must now be saved for anonymous internet forums.

Sigh…

Obedience must be immediate and unquestioning, and simple reasonable questions must now be saved for anonymous internet forums.

You're quite right. This is exactly how I feel.

OP posts:

grey12 · 21/01/2022 14:35

@TeenPlusCat just so we're clear I don't care about this issue I don't put pronouns on my emails

BUT I know some people do care and do get offended. I have struggled trying to find whether a foreign name is male or female so I can put Mr or Ms so I think it would be better to drop such a formal and arcaic thing. Not even going to mention Miss/Mrs/Ms...........

Wintersun · 21/01/2022 14:36

I have a foreign name which sounds a bit similar to an English male name. Sometimes people have laughed when they’ve met me or spoken to me on the phone and were surprised that I wasn’t male but absolutely no other issues other then that.
It just wouldn’t bother me to be misgendered and I’m sure I’m not the only person this has happened to.
Why is it such a big deal? Someone will correct you.

TheGoldenWolfFleece · 21/01/2022 14:38

If my company forced me to state my pronouns i would be asking some questions about their gender pay gap and how they can ensure i am not subconsciously discriminated against because I'm a woman.

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 21/01/2022 14:41

“I prefer not to declare my protected characteristics in my email signature, I’m comfortable with colleagues and clients using whichever pronouns for me they consider appropriate” would I think be the response I would use if this comes up for me. If I don’t just comply 😬

Mummyoflittledragon · 21/01/2022 14:42

@grey12

People!!!! Just because YOU have a very traditional english gendered name doesn't mean everyone does!!! And personally I don't recognise gendered names in other languages 🤷🏻‍♀️

I agree we can use they. Idk why you brought this point up. Displaying pronouns has very little to do with determining the biological sex of a person with a name derived from a different language. Google is often your friend. Search ‘Is [insert name] eg Peaches / Abdul etc a male or female name’ and results appear.

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 21/01/2022 14:44

I also have a gender neutral name and quite enjoy catching some people on the back foot when they realise I’m a woman (there’s a definite shift in tone at times!). Being misgendered over an email doesn’t bother me in the slightest - I might take umbrage to being misgendered in person.

ExConstance · 21/01/2022 14:44

I quite like the idea because my sector has a very ethnically diverse profile and I am unable to judge what pronoun to use just from the name itself on occasions. I always work out or ask how to pronounce the names but if you then use the wrong pronoun it would be easy to cause offence.

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