Urgent advice wanted - dd at uni about to hand in essays late and lose 5 marks for each - should she speak to tutor?

[Mumofunibaby]

Just that. My dd is in her 2nd year at uni and had 3 essays due together (2 yesterday, one today). She got in a right state and handed in 1 essay a few hours late yesterday, the second she is just finishing now (was also due by 2pm yesterday) and as a result, the third essay due today will also now be a few hours late.

The problem is that her uni deducts 5 marks per 24 hours an essay is late. So she is likely to lose 3 x 5 marks in total. Which is a lot. And a real shame as she just scraped a first in her first year grades, but could end up with a 2.2 in her final degree now.

She is dyslexic but hasn't registered as such at uni, partly because she struggled to organise a dyslexia assessment during lockdown.

Could anyone with recent uni experience or who is a tutor please advise - is it worth her contacting her personal or subject tutors to ask for some leniency? She says there is no point as they won't give any and stress you lose 5 marks if your essay is 1 minute late, let alone a few hours. But that does seem really harsh, as it's basically because they've all come at once so being late with the first one has had a domino effect on all the others.

She is very stressed and has been in floods of tears about this.

All suggestions appreciated. Thank you!

Late essays at mine without an agreed extension would be marked 0%

@Tal45 Are you neurodiverse as well? Struggling with executive function is a massive issue for many neurodiverse people but we have to learn skills to manage the issue! It's difficult. Of course it is but it's not impossible.

@nitsandwormsdodger

I am a dyslexic person who had a psychotic breakdown at uni , when I got out of hospital my parents were supportive but would not have dreamed of contacting my uni I would have been mortified . You are very over involved and. I can see where she gets her anxiety from ! SHE needs to try and sort this out and ask for understanding and help maybe she will get it , maybe this will be a painful ( but necessary learning curve ) But definitely butt out

That is very rude.

Nowhere have I suggested calling her uni or contacting her tutors etc. This is about me asking the kind users of MN to suggest next steps she can usefully take.

Butt out yourself!

@goawaystormy

OP, I just want to offer some reassurance that this probably isn't as catastrophic as you think. Mine and all my friends uni's worked in the way i'm about the describe so i'm sorry if it's incorrect but please know its coming from a place of reassurance.

For each essay that is late the is a 5% penalty.

Given your DD is in second year I can't imagine she has any modules worth more than 20 credits. Therefore even if each of these essays is worth 100% of a 20 credit module (which i think is highly unlikely, i never had an essay worth more than 60%) then for each late essay she's only losing 1 'credit'

Ontop of that every uni i've ever known has weighted 2nd year 33% (or 33.33) and 3rd year 67% (or 66.66).

Therefore losing 3 credits maximum from the year that is much lower weighted in her final degree classification isn't going to be catastrophic.

Another way to think of it is every 20 credit module in second year is worth 5.5% of her overall degree classification. Therefore by losing 5% from a 100% essay of a 20 credit module (which, again, is assuming these essays are 100% of the module grade which is highly unlikely) she's only losing 0.275% from her overall degree classification per essay. That's 0.825% across the 3 essays. So these 3 essays being penalised by 5% each will at maximum take less than 1% off her final degree classification.

Each 5% she looses this year is worth half the amount of any 5% she may lose next year in real terms. Therefore i'd try not to stress to much and instead encourage your DD to apply for all the support she is eligible for after this as having this support in place in her final year is going to be far more important

Sorry if that is confusing, the ways degrees are calculated it very complex, but I hope it helps both your and her stress levels

Thanks! Thanks for taking the time to work that out and post it and yes, reassuring.

She is very conscientious and gets stressed trying to make them perfect.

I believe everyone has different areas they find challenging and easy and university exposes these. For your daughter this statement will really hold her back long term in the workplace. She needs to learn that finished but not perfect is preferable to unfinished. It's really tough but such a valuable skill. Maybe this will be a wake up call for her and actually help long term?

@SleighThePatriarchy123

Another Uni Lecturer Here, I echo what folks are saying about deadlines - they are deadlines. End of. Sometimes it's not just about working hard, so worth checking in to see if something else is going on. If you want support from a Uni you have to ask for it in the right way and I would encourage you to do so. Otherwise,

1. University is about standing on your own - yes, you have friends and family but decisions (good and bad) need to be your daughter's. If she asks for advice, give it. Good or bad it has to be something she carves out and manages by herself. If you're posting about this online, my instinct says you need to check yourself; hard to do but it's important here.

1. Safety Check & Caveat - Is there too much pressure here? From herself? Perfectionism is a genuine mental health issue and can kill slowly, one expectation at a time whether achieved or missed. How might the family support a move away from this? For example, you don't get a "1st" in first year and nor do your grades from 2nd year count towards your classification. That you mentioned that on Mumsnet should be a point of reflection for you. Speaking in those terms and posting to a online forum because your child might lose 5 marks from an essay (albeit x3 times) signals something to think about.

I'm a PhD and lifetime perfectionist, to my detriment. I'm aiming to unlearn a lot of bad habits so that as little as possible manifests in my daughter. My husband got a Desmond (2:2). He is the well adjusted and much higher earner. Grades I'm afraid reflect a snapshot of how well someone managed to do on an assignment at a given time in life. Yes, they make us feel good sometimes but part of the Uni game is figuring out what they mean to you and, if they are causing panic and crying there is an unhelpful relationship going on between grades and self-esteem. Your daughter's worth is not conveyed through her grades. Speaking from a lifetime weight of unspoken family pride and expectation unwittingly directed to my shoulders, I urge you to tell your daughter the following:

"Sometimes you do your best and you hand stuff in late and you get penalised. And that's life. It's okay to be that person. You would have preferred not to, but hey, for x reasons that's the way it happened this time. You're human. Life goes on and we love you dearly and we are immensely proud of you. Perfection doesn't exist. It's a crap concept and if for one second it stops you from feeling good or proud of yourself then, you need to reassess. You're wonderful. You're complex. You're allowed to make mistakes and be amazing at the same time. Tell me about what you put in the essays, I love hearing about what you're learning at Uni..."

My own mum gave me a mug with "Failure is not an option" as her idea of what was motivating and supportive. Don't be that mother. Just make this a memory she can reflect on, grow from and hopefully laugh about long after graduation. Don't be the mum that blames the Uni. Chances are she will lose the 15 points and still pass...right? She sounds like a cool badass academic to me.

Thanks for the thoughtful post.

My eldest dd (this dd's older sister) recently graduated from uni with the top 1st in her year, and so dd2 (the one this thread is about) - especially given her dyslexia - has always felt a bit in her shadow.

So although I would say my lovely dd2 has a million fabulous personality traits which matter much more, she has a tendency to judge herself as being 'not as bright' as dd1. Which is what I suspect may be underlying her perfectionism.

Love your suggested pep talk though and will have a go at that!

She needs to learn to plan her time better to meet the deadlines. I'm sure the essays weren't all handed out last week.
University is a training ground for life, she has learnt a valuable lesson in planning and managing time to have some in the bag when projects over run or take a little longer than expected.

Dyslexic here, (Jesus wept - had to use spell checker to spell dyslexic correctly!). Dyslexic DD as well doing A levels. DD also has eye tracking issues.

So...first stop get her assessed and all the help you can from the Disabled Students Dept. They can recommend software, and other things to help. Anything to speed up her writing. If she qualifies for extra time in exams, then she needs to talk to the Disabled Student people about if they'd recommend her getting extensions for her 'essay only courses'. No idea if that's a thing - but once you have a diagnosis then you can start getting help. Without it, she's just the kid missing deadlines.

I'd like to say a huge thank you to the many wonderful posters who've taken the time to share their knowledge and experience and given some really helpful advice, lots making me borderline weepy because it was so lovely and helpful (special shout out here to @Tal45 ).

To clarify, I don't normally know exactly what dd is doing in terms of when she's handing her essays in, at what time, what the issue is etc - the reason I know so much about these particular essays and how much work she's been doing in the last few weeks is - and sorry, it didn't occur to me this would need spelling out because I thought everyone would know that it is still uni holidays and students usually come home for Christmas - that dd has been living at home for the last month! She's been writing her essays at my dining room table and bursting into tears in the lounge, so this isn't me being over-involved, this is me living with a student during their holidays. And maybe you think as a good parent I should ignore that and walk on by - but I don't.

Also to clarify - she is in her second year of uni, but was only actually at uni for less than half of her first year due to the pandemic, and spent her entire first term locked in her student flat (luckily she had lovely flatmates) so she had none of the usual opportunities to go and get dyslexia assessments etc. Just coping with uni whilst having Covid, not being able to go out, losing a close relative in the pandemic etc etc was a big enough jump. So no, I don't think that makes her 'supremely stupid', in the words of one lovely poster.

Also, shame on those saying she doesn't deserve a degree (she managed a 1st in her first year, even without any dyslexia support) or that this means she will struggle in employment - her preferred choice of career is not deadline driven and does not involve essays! But even if it did, then NEWSFLASH!!! - reasonable adjustments apply at work too!

A bit shocked at the ableism on this thread but I guess that's life.

And thanks again for all those who took the time to make helpful suggestions - you know who you are.

I think what she needs to focus on is:

1. the bigger picture, 3 essays with 5 mark penalties will not give her a 2:2 grade overall in her degree. She’s got a year and a half to go still so no point either of you catastrophising about grades. Also not the end of the world if she does end up with a 2:2.

2. use this as a lesson for the future, and get the support in place. Can she reflect on what went wrong at what point in the current essays and work on interventions when she recognises this replaying. Eg if she’s done too much reading decide a cut off point like she’ll only read x amount.

3. following the above note, read selectively, plan the essay and points and read around these. You don’t need to read and include all the course materials. If she’s not sure how to approach this 1-1s/tutorials with tutors will be a good help for guiding her.

4. upload each version as she goes and edits. That will mean whether she’s happy with it or not she’s got SOMETHING submitted, and she can then weigh up whether what she changes after the deadline is worth more than 5%.

Hope everything’s ok OP and once everything’s submitted she’s able to just put it behind her and not dwell on it.

Maybe ask her what day she’ll get the results, and quietly organise some distractions for these days and the days approaching them, to take her mind off it and stop her working herself up

Thanks for the NEWSFLASH and the understanding of the workplace! Perhaps you could mention it to my employers? I did when I was appointed and interviewed, got Occ health help and all, but I myself had to have a very good and grown up idea of the reasonable adjustments that would help me. In the case of how I would have no issues in the surroundings I first went to, the managers and structure that were in place - then the contrast with those that were a totally different animal 5 years later, even though I had no idea of what they would be when appointed. In practice...nobody's batting for you unless you can manage your own stuff.

(BTW, if she takes any psychometric tests as part of a future career, you might also want to ensure whoever administers them has information about her diagnoses beforehand also - another situation of 'too late afterwards' and somewhere where I have seen neurodiverse candidates draw a very short and unfair straw).

Harsh as it is this is a really common policy for late submissions. My university has an automatic fail if more than 24 hours late.

She may be able to get an extension via Mitigating Circumstances- but she will need to do this herself and go through the formal process of applying for this- but it is very likely to be rejected for these grounds. Typically it is reserved for extreme circumstances such as hospitalisation preventing someone from completing the work.

A parent getting involved in the grading of university level work is going to perceived very negatively by tutors...

The more you say about your DD the more I think its worth investigating inattentive ADHD.
www.additudemag.com/add-inattentive-adhd-symptom-test-adults/

I agree OP that's there been a shocking amount of ableism on this thread.

I really hope your DD will be okay. Please tell her it's okay to mess up sometimes, most students do! The important thing now is to access help for the future.

She could have done them, well and on time if she'd started sooner.

Did you miss the dyslexia part? Do you know that means more than just not being able to read?

OP, she needs to register her disability with the university and have the right reasonable adjustments made.

All depends if there was genuine mitigating circumstances. If she was set these essays last term and failed to write them over Christmas then yabu. I have a dd who looses marks because she doesn't organise herself, she is autistic but the reason she's late writing them is playing computer games!

Some of these replies are fucking disgusting!
I wonder why my case load has gone up 100%.
OP ask you DD to get in touch with her tutor and with DS services.
Having undisclosed dyslexia is a mitigating circumstance, she can apply for that if her tutor wont support an extension.
Once she is under the disability umbrella there are many things she will have access to, including extra time, study skills support, therapy and mentors etc.
Nothing wrong with being a young adult, in a new position asking or seeking support from a parent.
Good luck.

Deadlines are normally published waaaaay in advance so even with them being on the same date etc she would have had ample time to manage this unfortunately.

As it is undiagnosed it is unlikely that they will take her reasons in consideration to be more lenient. The only thing she could do is submit an extenuating circumstances form which may give her a 2 week extension but can't remember if there is a deadline for when these can be requested by.

@Ormally

Thanks for the NEWSFLASH and the understanding of the workplace! Perhaps you could mention it to my employers? I did when I was appointed and interviewed, got Occ health help and all, but I myself had to have a very good and grown up idea of the reasonable adjustments that would help me. In the case of how I would have no issues in the surroundings I first went to, the managers and structure that were in place - then the contrast with those that were a totally different animal 5 years later, even though I had no idea of what they would be when appointed. In practice...nobody's batting for you unless you can manage your own stuff.

If the OP thinks that 'reasonable adjustments' apply in the workplace she's going to be in for a shock. Especially since the definition of reasonable is subject to interpretation. I have ADD and terrible executive function, also paying attention. Getting people to repeat things, to match my communication style is reasonable. Getting people to constantly remind of things that need doing is not.

The perfect job for me would some sort of creative role where I can spin around in my default daydreaming state ;) unfortunately impossible.

OP these essays doesn't matter, PP have given helpful advice, but it would be a good idea if you can afford it to get private help/coaching/therapy to help your daughter cope. Uni can only do so much. Unfortunately it will always take her extra time to do certain things but in time she will be able to work to her strengths. She has already come so far doing a reading subject with dyslexia!

At DD's university you can get a two week extension with no penalty, but you have to submit the request before the deadline. There is a penalty if they're submitted late.
Failing that I think you can retake any paper (once) during a week in the summer.
So even if you do nothing else this time around, it's worth asking what the procedure is at your DD's institution. Even if it proves too late for these three, it would be good to know for next time.

I do think that fact that Covid made getting everything in place re Dyslexia before might be taken into account. It is certainly worth trying especially as your DD has done so well up to now and is clearly a committed student. I am sure they would try to help if there is anyway to be flexible given these difficult times.

@gogohm

All depends if there was genuine mitigating circumstances. If she was set these essays last term and failed to write them over Christmas then yabu. I have a dd who looses marks because she doesn't organise herself, she is autistic but the reason she's late writing them is playing computer games!

To be fair, I am a mature student, have been supposed to write 7500 words over Xmas, due next week and I too played too many games over Xmas! It's hard to do it without the crashing reality of a deadline looming. That's just the reality of being a student.

Sorry, I am tired. I meant that Covid made it impossible before.