Urgent advice wanted - dd at uni about to hand in essays late and lose 5 marks for each - should she speak to tutor?

[Mumofunibaby]

Just that. My dd is in her 2nd year at uni and had 3 essays due together (2 yesterday, one today). She got in a right state and handed in 1 essay a few hours late yesterday, the second she is just finishing now (was also due by 2pm yesterday) and as a result, the third essay due today will also now be a few hours late.

The problem is that her uni deducts 5 marks per 24 hours an essay is late. So she is likely to lose 3 x 5 marks in total. Which is a lot. And a real shame as she just scraped a first in her first year grades, but could end up with a 2.2 in her final degree now.

She is dyslexic but hasn't registered as such at uni, partly because she struggled to organise a dyslexia assessment during lockdown.

Could anyone with recent uni experience or who is a tutor please advise - is it worth her contacting her personal or subject tutors to ask for some leniency? She says there is no point as they won't give any and stress you lose 5 marks if your essay is 1 minute late, let alone a few hours. But that does seem really harsh, as it's basically because they've all come at once so being late with the first one has had a domino effect on all the others.

She is very stressed and has been in floods of tears about this.

All suggestions appreciated. Thank you!

As a former university tutor I would have expected advance notice of any issues so I could signpost to services and check in with the student, see what I /the department could offer.
The biggest issue I noticed time and time again is that students waited until after the event to highlight any issues which was too late. I've extended deadlines no problem and arranged extra help for students (and given extra help) when I knew in time. I think it is probably too late now but always worth linking in with the personal tutor to see can they offer anything.

I am a dyslexic person who had a psychotic breakdown at uni , when I got out of hospital my parents were supportive but would not have dreamed of contacting my uni I would have been mortified .
You are very over involved and. I can see where she gets her anxiety from !
SHE needs to try and sort this out and ask for understanding and help maybe she will get it , maybe this will be a painful ( but necessary learning curve )
But definitely butt out

A lot of the problem is she has done so much reading, for these recent essays, that her word counts are way too high, so she is having to spend lots of time reducing her word count or her essays would fail right off, because they were overlength.

This sounds like it is at the heart of the issue not knowing what is necessary to include and at what depth, can she access support from her tutors on this because she is effectively wasting a lot of her time and that is pretty key to time management.

Just as a help at most universities the marking is
40% third
50% 2:2
60% 2:1
70% 1st

The only university I know of which is different is open university where I believe it's something like 85% for a first, and so on.

For what year is worth typically 1st year grades don't count towards your degree. 2nd and 3rd year do but 3rd normally has a higher weighting (mine was 35/65)

It's worth messaging the tutor as the worst they can say is no, but realistically she may have to accept the downgrades. Is each paper out of 100 marks so the downgrade is a max of 95 out of 100?

Going forward there are lots of people who should be able to help your daughter. Her tutor, lecturers, libaray, etc. Also just as a note typically you need to apply for extensions before the deadline, so if she ever does feel in the future she needs one then she needs to ask at least a couple of days prior.

Really feel for her though! 3 deadlines in a row is hard. And I know a lot of people are saying "but she will have had them a while" but when I was at uni we got 2 weeks to do them. I had a similar situation so had 2weeks 2days to complete 3 pieces of coursework and it was hard. I do empathise a lot.

Dyslexia aside, if this was more due to perfectionism then this is a good lesson to have had. And I say this as someone who really struggled at university with perfectionism, to the detriment of my health. I can highly recommend finding a good therapist using CBT to help get over this and stop it impacting her further, like others have said there is no flexibility in the workplace when it comes to deadlines.

Loosing 5 marks each due to them being late isnt a disaster. especially not if she will still end up with marks in the high 60s.

Lesson learned to be sure to get them in on time next time. No way would I make a fuss about this as a student. And I definitely wouldnt interfere as a parent. That they are all due in at once isnt an issue either - she knew that when they were set.

@BronwenFrideswide

A lot of the problem is she has done so much reading, for these recent essays, that her word counts are way too high, so she is having to spend lots of time reducing her word count or her essays would fail right off, because they were overlength.

This sounds like it is at the heart of the issue not knowing what is necessary to include and at what depth, can she access support from her tutors on this because she is effectively wasting a lot of her time and that is pretty key to time management.

It's normal at university level to write more than you need, and read more background material than you need, and then edit/refine/structure your work to ensure the essay is the right length and clearly addresses all of the points that you are trying to make.

The write / edit process is just part of the work that she has to do, not an excuse for handing something in late. If someone is writing the exact word count first time, chances are their essay might be a bit thin on content...

Tbh, this sounds like a time management issue, and the OP is over-involved. Your daughter should speak to her tutor, but she's an adult and dealing with these issues is part and parcel of university level study.

Hi there. I'm in uni admin. Her best bet is to email the exams administrator and they'll probably advise that she completes an extenuating/mitigating circs form. She should definitely declare her dyslexia. Get her to talk to her Welfare or Advice and Counselling service as well. I'm surprised that she was able to submit late at all. In many universities you are unable to submit at all after the deadline. Good luck.

Another Uni Lecturer Here, I echo what folks are saying about deadlines - they are deadlines. End of. Sometimes it's not just about working hard, so worth checking in to see if something else is going on. If you want support from a Uni you have to ask for it in the right way and I would encourage you to do so.
Otherwise,

1. University is about standing on your own - yes, you have friends and family but decisions (good and bad) need to be your daughter's. If she asks for advice, give it. Good or bad it has to be something she carves out and manages by herself. If you're posting about this online, my instinct says you need to check yourself; hard to do but it's important here.

1. Safety Check & Caveat - Is there too much pressure here? From herself? Perfectionism is a genuine mental health issue and can kill slowly, one expectation at a time whether achieved or missed. How might the family support a move away from this? For example, you don't get a "1st" in first year and nor do your grades from 2nd year count towards your classification. That you mentioned that on Mumsnet should be a point of reflection for you. Speaking in those terms and posting to a online forum because your child might lose 5 marks from an essay (albeit x3 times) signals something to think about.

I'm a PhD and lifetime perfectionist, to my detriment. I'm aiming to unlearn a lot of bad habits so that as little as possible manifests in my daughter. My husband got a Desmond (2:2). He is the well adjusted and much higher earner. Grades I'm afraid reflect a snapshot of how well someone managed to do on an assignment at a given time in life. Yes, they make us feel good sometimes but part of the Uni game is figuring out what they mean to you and, if they are causing panic and crying there is an unhelpful relationship going on between grades and self-esteem. Your daughter's worth is not conveyed through her grades. Speaking from a lifetime weight of unspoken family pride and expectation unwittingly directed to my shoulders, I urge you to tell your daughter the following:

"Sometimes you do your best and you hand stuff in late and you get penalised. And that's life. It's okay to be that person. You would have preferred not to, but hey, for x reasons that's the way it happened this time. You're human. Life goes on and we love you dearly and we are immensely proud of you. Perfection doesn't exist. It's a crap concept and if for one second it stops you from feeling good or proud of yourself then, you need to reassess. You're wonderful. You're complex. You're allowed to make mistakes and be amazing at the same time. Tell me about what you put in the essays, I love hearing about what you're learning at Uni..."

My own mum gave me a mug with "Failure is not an option" as her idea of what was motivating and supportive. Don't be that mother. Just make this a memory she can reflect on, grow from and hopefully laugh about long after graduation. Don't be the mum that blames the Uni. Chances are she will lose the 15 points and still pass...right? She sounds like a cool badass academic to me.

It's normal for essays to all be done by the same deadline in some subjects. I did English (so a lot of writing) and all 6 modules had our end of semester essays due on the same day. They made us aware of it in the module coursebook before we even started the course though so there was no excuse, and unless they only informed your dd of the deadline with less than a week to go it's nobody's fault but hers that she left it until after the last minute to finish them.

If you could channel her perfection attitude into including submitting on time I think that would be a big help going forward. Or aim for the day before the deadline.

Are you sure she was working on them for weeks? And not trying to work on them but getting distracted (been there myself) if they were nearly ready then on time would hace been sensible option rather than tweaking for an extra few hours. Perhaps losing the marks is how she will learn the lesson. It is a shame though.

Yes, yes, yes contact her tutor & student support. People saying "it's just poor time management" probably haven't been to uni for 20 years and don't understand how student support works now. She should absolutely mention the dyslexia and distress she is facing, there's so much support there and she should access it. Some unis even allow students to self-cert for extenuating circumstances now in situations like this.

I don’t have family support because I’m 35, but I have friends who went to Uni who have offered advice, and an ex lecturer friend who has been invaluable.

Needing support isn’t a sign of weakness, or failure, or not being academic enough for University, ffs.

Wow has no one really heard of executive function here and the links to dyslexia? Your daughter is struggling with executive function IMO not to mention that her reading for her takes so much more time. It may well however be too late to get any leniency with these essays but she should talk to her tutors, talk to student services and find out and then get all that support in place ready for future assignments - and read up on struggling with executive function!!

Also look up dyslexia, procrastination and perfectionism - there is so much to read and understand, dyslexia isn't just about difficulty with reading but I really don't think people understand at all. It's much more complex and is why people keep asking about ADD and ADHD. I doubt your daughter has either, this is just all part of her Dyslexia and it's complicated.

There are often extensions to deadlines in the work place so for pp's to say otherwise is BS, I hear out my OH's mouth all the time 'the deadline's been pushed back'. Literally every other week!

Anyway I think you sound like a fantastically supportive parent of a child with a disability who is struggling, please don't listen to people who say you are over involved. I think you sound like a fucking wonderful mum.

Anyway I think you sound like a fantastically supportive parent of a child with a disability who is struggling, please don't listen to people who say you are over involved. I think you sound like a fucking wonderful mum.

Yes to this. OP

I have some sympathy for your DD, she sounds very stressed. BUT I used to mark essay assignments as an OU tutor and I can't tell you how stressful it was from the other side, often having the majority of essays arrive late, either through pre-arranged extensions or, much more often, last-minute desperate appeals for more time. I would clear my diary for a week after each assignment due date so that I could get the marking done in good time and also compare standards across the students. This was to their benefit because if, for example, the majority seem to have misunderstood a particular aspect, I would be more lenient about it. However, by the end of the academic year, I could almost guarantee that very few students would submit on time, and in those days ( a long time ago) we were not able to deduct marks for late submission. Our only recourse was to refuse to mark the essays, which I never did - but I did used to resent those late students (doubtless all with very good excuses) who sometimes made me give up things I had booked to do - once, a weekend trip away, sometimes spending less time with my children - in order to get their essays graded by my deadline. So, students - think about your tutors and lecturers if you can't get your work in on time. It may cause them major inconvenience.

@Mumofunibaby
Sounds like ADD to me...my dd was diagnosed with Dyslexia at 16 and ADD at 19, symptoms often overlap.

The Dyslexia diagnosis (slow processing) explained my dd's slow writing and memory issues. But it was the ADHD diagnosis which explained her disorganisation & inability to manage her time. It's hard to believe, but ADD can mean that the brain just isn't wired to manage time like neuro-typical people. It's common to underestimate how long it will take to complete a task with ADHD.

Both us parents & school thought dd was a perfectionist & disorganised/lazy but this is a common misconception.

You say that: "She had extra time at school due to dyslexia. Her eye tracking is on the 20th percentile" - is there any report from school you can access? There must have been more to this, as 20th percentile is not normally low enough for a dyslexia diagnosis...I think it's around 14% and below to qualify, but I could be wrong.

Either way depending on when the assessment was done at school, you will likely need to get a new Dyslexia and ADD assessment/apply for DSA at uni. On my dd's DSA report it states that she is entitled to extended deadlines if necessary. However, as her time management is so poor, she said she'd rather not take this as a later deadline would mean just transferring her last minute work ethic to a night before the new extended deadline!

In her working life, once graduated, she’ll get very short shrift for missing deadlines and not renegotiating due dates of tasks realistically before they’re due.
By 2nd year students should not be making these types of errors. Even first year students. Sort of thing she should have got a handle on at A level.
She needs to get her head around that it is better to deliver something on time that is maybe not perfect than to be late seeking perfection. I’m a perfectionist so I sympathise but this is not good and she needs to learn form this. If that makes her final results 2.2 well that’s what she deserves unfortunately. Its not all about teaching quality of work, it’s also about actually producing something on time and not expecting everyone else picks up the slack for her lateness- the lecturers marking this won’t be able to give her results late so she’s just putting pressure on other people and that’s not nice for her to assume she can just do that while she faffs about trying to reach perfection.

There is so much evidence of a connection between dyslexia and executive function.

Ideally she would have been able to access support services in her first year, but that has probably only been online due to Covid, which for people with poor exec function is much harder.

I would help her as much as you can to apply for support/extra time etc, like she had at school, and then see if they will help her apply retrospectively for an extension. They might say no, but if you don't ask you definitely don't get.

Hi,
These things happen a lot, its not unusual for students to find time management over whleming but there are links to dyslexia and related issues making this harded.
Extensions can be handed down in retrospect that is also quite common. I would have your daughter email the disability office and ask for advice and they can help your daughter navigate the assessments and extra support.
My friend has all sorts of things now we never had, including an acccountability person who rings her up to make sure she is keeping on track with her assignments as well as a study skills coach.
Once the big hurdle of making contact is done it is easier. If she needs help to fill in the forms she can also request this.
Good luck.

@Tal45

Wow has no one really heard of executive function here and the links to dyslexia? Your daughter is struggling with executive function IMO not to mention that her reading for her takes so much more time. It may well however be too late to get any leniency with these essays but she should talk to her tutors, talk to student services and find out and then get all that support in place ready for future assignments - and read up on struggling with executive function!!

Also look up dyslexia, procrastination and perfectionism - there is so much to read and understand, dyslexia isn't just about difficulty with reading but I really don't think people understand at all. It's much more complex and is why people keep asking about ADD and ADHD. I doubt your daughter has either, this is just all part of her Dyslexia and it's complicated.

There are often extensions to deadlines in the work place so for pp's to say otherwise is BS, I hear out my OH's mouth all the time 'the deadline's been pushed back'. Literally every other week!

Anyway I think you sound like a fantastically supportive parent of a child with a disability who is struggling, please don't listen to people who say you are over involved. I think you sound like a fucking wonderful mum.

Ok, am I missing something? So if this is the case and will be case throughout her degree and working life then she’ll be marked accordingly. If that’s a 3rd or 2.2 then that’s what it is. It’s a reflection of what someone has achieved not some wishful thinking that they might have achieved this if they did not have a disability. Whilst making obvious adjustments for disability, in terms of equipment etc, if someone is impacted in terms o f executive thinking skills etc then really there is a limit on trying to “pretend” that she can achieve a 2.1 if only people would allow for the fact that she has basic issues with planning , motivation and organisation etc. this is what getting a degree is all about. Thinking. Reasoning. Presenting arguments. Communication. And delivering that to deadlines. I didn’t get a first. I knew no matter how hard I worked I wouldn’t get a first. I just didn’t have the natural talent and cognitive ability in my subject to do that (chemistry), I worked hard and got 2.1. That was my best outcome and I was jolly proud of it given I was not gifted enough naturally to get that first. Same argument.

Depends on the policy of thew university, department and how much disgretion the univerity lecture gets - if nothing else if she gets in touch she'll know for future reference.

Much to annoyance of DH (Uni lecturer and course leader) and many of his students there's three days grace currently for everyone at his Univeristy- due to covid - so it's possible they're being more lax than usual.

Normally there' nothing DH can do but sign post the student to student support and they at least should be able to help her in future and help guide her through what ever processes she needs to get through in future.

I'm dyslexic and manged to meet deadline during degrees and work - she may just need to better strategies to help her do that going forward. Univeristy have support so she need to find it and make use - certainly easier to do this while she's still in education rather than a workplace.

Why doesn't she have a PLP in place for her dyslexia? Supremely stupid not to have one.

There are often extensions to deadlines in the work place so for pp's to say otherwise is BS, I hear out my OH's mouth all the time 'the deadline's been pushed back'. Literally every other week!

Totally agree, I really dislike this whole narrative that we shouldn't give students more flexibility or leniency because they won't get it in the 'real world'.

Not everyone goes on to jobs where you have these giant projects due to the minute on a certain day. Plenty of jobs are more about keeping on top of smaller day to day things. Plenty of jobs are more about doing things than writing things. And yes, plenty of jobs have deadlines that end up being rather flexible.

As well as disability support most universities have academic skills / learning development tutors. It would be worth her making an appointment and going for a chat with one, as they will be able to support with the issues she is having. I'd suggest doing this as soon as she gets her next assignments. Some of the negative comments on this thread are very disheartening and the support she will get from those teams will have a much more positive approach!