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Original poster

NHS Language Excluding Women

208 replies

PurplePansy05 · 04/01/2022 23:10

I am adding this in the Chat section, not a dedicated Feminism/Gender section or AIBU because I would like to have a wider and preferably not heated discussion about this.

I came across this NHS page:

www.nhs.uk/conditions/cervical-cancer/causes/

and the language:

Anyone with a cervix can get cervical cancer. This includes trans and non-binary people with a cervix.

has made me feel very uncomfortable. This page was recently reviewed, September 2021. It's the second time I came across this on the NHS website, I can't find the other page now.

Whilst I understand everyone's right to perceive themselves how they wish to, feel how they wish to about anything including their own gender, and that to be respected, I do not understand why this page does not refer to women. Women are by far the main and key group of interest here. I personally do not identify as a person with a cervix. I identify as a woman, always have and always will, and I would like to be referred to as a woman.

I do not understand why this term is being eradicated. It's not an inclusive approach by any measure.

Am I missing something? Is my thinking flawed? Is the same happening with the term "men"?

OP posts:
FOJN · 05/01/2022 21:24

Transmen are fully aware that they are female and have a cervix.

I don't understand how trans people can give informed consent to hormones or surgery if they have not demonstrated they understand the health risks and screening required which are specific to their sex. Surely that has to be part of determining if they have realistic expectations of treatment.

Lack of clarity around language and an insistence on avoiding words which may cause offence is dangerous. A young TM died (USA) a couple of years ago when they presented in ER with abdominal pain but failed to mention they were female, no one asked if they could be pregnant because they thought the patient was male, they had pregnancy related complications and needlessly died because of the delay in diagnosing the problem.

BloomingTrees · 05/01/2022 21:25

they asked how they would know lmao and thats how you would know

sorry I don't understand how you would know ? If a child is not intersex how would you know if they have a cervix or not ?

FOJN · 05/01/2022 21:27

Although, most parents of intersex children are told at the birth of the child.

Some DSD's do not make themselves apparent until puberty.

ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 21:29

[quote Barbarantia]@ErynIsTrans women are happy to have you, however you present and whatever gender identity you have.
Isn't that the whole point of being inclusive? Being included in the group? Or do you believe that women accepting means men will reject you? I'm sure they'll be happy to accept you into their social circles seeing as gender is the social aspect of life? They'll know you are a woman biologically so what? They'll accept you as socially masculine. You are accepted into both communities on differing basis. We don't need mental gymnastics and word contortion for it![/quote]
i want to be accepted by women but not as one, and the same with men lmao

ShrillSiren · 05/01/2022 21:52

If you are worried that your child might be intersex, you should contact your doctor/GP! If this is a serious concern, you might want to go soon so they can receive the best treatment and care. Although, most parents of intersex children are told at the birth of the child.

Well that's quite the deflection, isn't it? I know you think that was some sort of gotcha but it isn't. It just shows you have no way to explain something so you go off on another tangent.

So let's try again. I have no worries that any of my children are intersex, how do I know which one has a prostate and which one has a cervix?

If one of them starts bleeding from their genitals, how will I know if it's normal or they should go to the hospital? I mean, any people can have periods according to your view, so I guess I shouldn't worry either way.

Barbarantia · 05/01/2022 22:21

"i want to be accepted by women but not as one, and the same with men lmao"

@ErynIsTrans I can't help but think there's an absolute confusion between being socially accepted by men (and everyone else) as not a woman and being part of a biological sex class.
I think you have rejected the very idea of a sex class.
This definitely messes up healthcare centered on the female sex if the NHS feels like this too.

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 05/01/2022 22:28

Excluding women - the NHS are vile women haters. Disgusting.

Enough4me · 05/01/2022 22:42

@ErynIsTrans, why should your desire to have language changed trump the majority who do not want this?

In the same way, I don't want to see a penis when I'm getting changed for swimming, so why should a male's choice to use women's facilities trump my rights?

We didn't have pressure to pretend before, and on a day-to-day basis reality is still ever present. It's only in the places where Stonewall has invaded that the real issues are apparent.

Franca123 · 05/01/2022 22:42

I have what we used to call a son and a daughter. In this new world, how do I talk to them about periods? Do we pretend that we don't know which one will menstruate and which one won't? Does the NHS now pretend they don't know either? Or behind the scenes are we all quietly fully aware what a man is and what a woman is.

Enough4me · 05/01/2022 22:45

@Franca123, I have the same a DD and DS. My DS would be horrified if I described menstruation to cover all bases you know in case he's hiding a womb 🤣

RockinTheLockdown · 05/01/2022 22:59

@SirVixofVixHall

This is a cancer that affects women and only women. Transmen are fully aware that they are female and have a cervix. The twisting of the word woman into an identity to accommodate gender nonsense is disgraceful. If someone chooses to register with their GP as the opposite sex then frankly that is their own look out, as everyone knows that some medical issues are sex specific.
This.

People can identify as males or goats or sofas or whatever the hell they want to, but they know what their biological sex is even if they'd prefer other people not to know it.

There's no need for the NHS to highlight this, unless they are actually acknowledging this as a mental health condition where someone can become so deluded by their shiny new identity that they think they've magic'd away their female reproductive system.

I don't believe for one second that someone can forget they have a female body and what that involves.

BlackeyedSusan · 05/01/2022 23:43

Needs to include the word woman as loads of people will not know it applies to them otherwise. It's excluding disabled women. Why is one protected characteristic put at risk of death (due to not knowing cervix applies to them) to protect the feelings of another group. Both need to be included.

Original poster
PurplePansy05 · 05/01/2022 23:52

I think the point is, you can't educate children by using the term 'people with a cervix'. If I have a DS and DD, only DD was born with a cervix. Therefore as her mother, I need to explain to her that she is the one needing cervical screening and at risk of cervical cancer. Because she's female. The same way with DS and prostate cancer. Unless of course they change sex biologically and different considerations apply to them then. Do you now get the point being made by some posters @ErynIsTrans? This has nothing to do with intersex children. Medical issues are linked to biological sex and must be explained as such.

Also: By removing the word ‘woman/women’, I feel erased. This. This is how I feel. And I don't want to feel this way.

OP posts:
ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 23:59

Of course it is to do with intersex children. Because they don't have "traditional" biology, their sex might be male but still have a cervix. it is important to include them as the can still get cervical cancer

Enough4me · 06/01/2022 00:05

@ErynIsTrans but intersex children need specific support as do trans, this shouldn't remove existing language.

It's possible to create information leaflets and advice for intersex and also for trans, for and trans to have third spaces. Trans leaflets can refer to the 100s of genders because that matters to trans and they can celebrate the flexibility to be different in one group, without impacting the majority who don't have gender ideologies.

buckeejit · 06/01/2022 00:12

Not fine. I also immediately checked the prostrate cancer entry & can only see reference to men. What's good for the goose....

foxgoosefinch · 06/01/2022 00:13

[quote ErynIsTrans]@PurplePansy05 Of course you can identify as a woman and be called a woman! It is simply inclusivity. For example, lets say a non-binary person with a cervix went onto the NHS website and saw that only women can get cervical cancer, they may assume that that meant that they couldn't get it as they aren't a woman, which could be dangerous. Or a trans woman who doesn't have a cervix could see that and think that they could also get cervical cancer. Hence, people with a cervix is used. That doesn't make you any less a woman, or me any less non-binary! It is simply a medical term to help with understanding and diagnosis.[/quote]
There is always a level of disingenuous tone and pretence to this kind of post which I suppose activists must think is convincing, but which invariably comes off as both rude and mendacious.

Bodies are material realities, as you acknowledge. (Being a woman is also a fact.) However, identities are sets of beliefs and stories in people's imaginations. Does it help you to pretend that someone is able to call themselves "non-binary" of their own free choice and thereby apparently believes that they have actually magically transformed into a sex-free androgynous being? Is it not deeply silly and patronising to assume they don't know what their actual sex is?

Most people call themselves non-binary to mean something like "I don't like some of the stereotypes associated with my sex so I want to pretend I'm not of that sex". There is no "non-binary body" (even if you count drastic cosmetic surgery), disorders of sexual development are not the same thing as "non-binary", and there is no literal third category. So are we supposed to pretend we all don't know that the "non-binary" are actually either male or female underneath?

More importantly, are we supposed to be pretending that they don't know, as you suggest? We all have to go along with the pretence that non-binary people really think they are a magical third state of being rather than acknowledge that they know perfectly well they are not? It's not even delusion, it's pretending that other people are deluded. Whereas in reality, no-one is actually deluded, so why do we have to base something as important as public health and clinical medical discourse on a set of pretences?

Givemepickles · 06/01/2022 00:14

I feel the same OP. I'm pregnant and somehow the erasure of women feels even worse than before I was pregnant. My NHS clinic asked what sex I was assigned at birth. My maternity letters refer to pregnant people. The NHS booster page referred to pregnant people. How can I trust these people with my care of they don't even respect my sex and the very unique, miraculous, risky experience that comes with it? I feel totally unempowered and erased at what should be the most special time of my life.

Enough4me · 06/01/2022 00:18

@buckeejit careful now or geese may become non-ganders or egg-layers.
Does become non-stags or fawn havers.
Important to be inclusive Confused

Original poster
PurplePansy05 · 06/01/2022 00:18

Eryn, you're being deliberately obtuse. The point has been explained clearly, it stands, and you pretend not to have noticed and continue to discuss intersex people, an entirely separate issue which nobody is disputing.

OP posts:
Original poster
PurplePansy05 · 06/01/2022 00:20

@Givemepickles I gave birth last year and felt the same as you. It is rather upsetting to us, especially at this time, I agree. Flowers

OP posts:
Enough4me · 06/01/2022 00:26

@Givemepickles away from institutions captured by Stonewall, I hope your family and friends talk normally and excitedly of women being pregnant and you becoming a mother. Hold onto the wider reality and know that NHS staff cannot say the truth without suffering. It's a wall of control across many institutions, but the push back against Stonewall is happening and a cause to feel there could be light at the end.

People away from the hype & stonewall are hopefully not caught in this. I seriously can't imagine a pregnant women being asked by a friend if she planned to chest feed, or whether she was looking forward to being a parent on parent day (instead of mother/mother's day).

foxgoosefinch · 06/01/2022 00:34

The other thing that repeatedly comes up is that many women with poor literacy skills, who are older or less well educated, or who have English as a second language, may not realise that "cervix" is part of female anatomy.

Whereas hardly any trans or "non-binary" people must really not know they are actually female. In fact I'd be sceptical about whether there are any, given that the rejection of femininity and the female body is the entire point.

So what Eryn and other activists are really arguing, is that vulnerable, older or poorer women who really are not aware that they have something called a cervix, are being deprioritised so that a few, largely young people, can pretend to not know they have cervixes.

And those few young people's feelings pretending or being at least seen to pretend that they are not female should be prioritised over the needs of many many actual women who may genuinely be at serious risk from cervical cancer.

And you wonder why women aren't signing up to this? To the idea that the luxurious beliefs of people who want us to pretend they aren't female, should come before the needs of actual females?

It's just the latest in everything and everyone "non-women" coming before "women". Meet the new patriarchalism: same as the old patriarchalism, except now we get to be told it's progressive.

Franca123 · 06/01/2022 00:40

I should educate my daughter that she is a cervix haver and my son that he is a prostrate haver. But shouldn't the NHS examine them internally to ensure they have these body parts? Surely it's transphobic for me to assume. I'm so confused!

Franca123 · 06/01/2022 00:42

@Givemepickles

I feel the same OP. I'm pregnant and somehow the erasure of women feels even worse than before I was pregnant. My NHS clinic asked what sex I was assigned at birth. My maternity letters refer to pregnant people. The NHS booster page referred to pregnant people. How can I trust these people with my care of they don't even respect my sex and the very unique, miraculous, risky experience that comes with it? I feel totally unempowered and erased at what should be the most special time of my life.
I'm sorry and I understand. One of my first thoughts when I saw how far this nonsense was getting was that I was glad I'd got through having children already. I could not have dealt with this shit whilst pregnant.