Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Original poster

NHS Language Excluding Women

208 replies

PurplePansy05 · 04/01/2022 23:10

I am adding this in the Chat section, not a dedicated Feminism/Gender section or AIBU because I would like to have a wider and preferably not heated discussion about this.

I came across this NHS page:

www.nhs.uk/conditions/cervical-cancer/causes/

and the language:

Anyone with a cervix can get cervical cancer. This includes trans and non-binary people with a cervix.

has made me feel very uncomfortable. This page was recently reviewed, September 2021. It's the second time I came across this on the NHS website, I can't find the other page now.

Whilst I understand everyone's right to perceive themselves how they wish to, feel how they wish to about anything including their own gender, and that to be respected, I do not understand why this page does not refer to women. Women are by far the main and key group of interest here. I personally do not identify as a person with a cervix. I identify as a woman, always have and always will, and I would like to be referred to as a woman.

I do not understand why this term is being eradicated. It's not an inclusive approach by any measure.

Am I missing something? Is my thinking flawed? Is the same happening with the term "men"?

OP posts:
ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 18:03

@PurplePansy05 Of course you can identify as a woman and be called a woman! It is simply inclusivity. For example, lets say a non-binary person with a cervix went onto the NHS website and saw that only women can get cervical cancer, they may assume that that meant that they couldn't get it as they aren't a woman, which could be dangerous. Or a trans woman who doesn't have a cervix could see that and think that they could also get cervical cancer. Hence, people with a cervix is used. That doesn't make you any less a woman, or me any less non-binary! It is simply a medical term to help with understanding and diagnosis.

CurbsideProphet · 05/01/2022 18:06

@ErynIsTrans if a non-binary person thought they could not develop cancer in an organ because of how they feel then something has gone very wrong in their understanding of human biology.

SirVixofVixHall · 05/01/2022 18:07

Everyone is non binary.
I am sure anyone calling themselves non binary is fully aware of their sex, do you think a an adult female calling themselves non binary wouldn’t use birth control as they would assume that their identity would mean they couldn’t get pregnant ? No one is that dim, surely.

Most of us on here don’t “identify as a woman “ . I don’t have an identity thank you. The reality is that I am a woman.

Original poster
PurplePansy05 · 05/01/2022 18:17

The medical term is 'female', though?

OP posts:
ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 18:20

[quote CurbsideProphet]@ErynIsTrans if a non-binary person thought they could not develop cancer in an organ because of how they feel then something has gone very wrong in their understanding of human biology.[/quote]
Of course, it was an extreme example, but the point still stands. It could be potentially dangerous. And it could also be very isolating and invalidating if somewhere as official as the NHS didn't include them. Intersex people also exist, and even if the NHS didn't put it that way for trans and non-binary people, it is inclusive and helpful for intersex people (if you're not sure what an intersex person is, here is a definition: Intersex is a general term used for a variety of situations in which a person is born with reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn't fit the boxes of “female” or “male.”)

ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 18:22

@PurplePansy05

The medical term is 'female', though?
Yes, but being female and being a woman are two separate things. That is a separate question. As i said above, it isn't just for trans people, it can also be for intersex people, who are biologically neither female or male.
ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 18:26

@SirVixofVixHall

Everyone is non binary. I am sure anyone calling themselves non binary is fully aware of their sex, do you think a an adult female calling themselves non binary wouldn’t use birth control as they would assume that their identity would mean they couldn’t get pregnant ? No one is that dim, surely.

Most of us on here don’t “identify as a woman “ . I don’t have an identity thank you. The reality is that I am a woman.

If you are not identifying as a woman, that is completely fine! OP said that they identify as a woman, and I was catering to their message. But identifying as a woman doesn't mean that you are a trans woman, it means you are a woman, whether you are assigned female at birth or not. Identifying as a woman is simply being a woman.
Ionlydomassiveones · 05/01/2022 18:27

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

CurbsideProphet · 05/01/2022 18:30

@ErynIsTrans so it's ok that women who have a low level of English are isolated and invalidated because they don't understand the term "person with a cervix" 🤔

Clearly you're just here to argue with those of us who still acknowledge the difference between men and women and attempt to moderate our language. We're not in Gilead yet. We can still call ourselves women. Perhaps you would prefer to go back to the echo chamber of twitter and have your opinion repeated back to you.

Btw intersex is far more complex than that and I'm sure that the small % of people who are intersex would not expect the rest of the population to stop using the term woman on their behalf.

ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 18:30

As a non-binary person myself, I find both is fine! As long as they acknowledge that you can have a cervix and not be a woman, its pretty inclusive, although i find OP's example to be more inclusive, but that is just my personal opinion.

BachAndByte · 05/01/2022 18:35

I liked the wording that someone suggested upthread about

Any women with a cervix can get cervical cancer. Trans and non-binary people with a cervix can also get cervical cancer.

I don’t think they can just say “women” without the qualifier “with a cervix” in this instance, as not all women have them.

Ijustreallywantacat · 05/01/2022 18:35

Really can't get het up about it. Like it or not, there are people who do not call themselves men who have cervixes. This includes them. This doesn't diminish my right to health care in say way, as a biological woman.

monsterflake · 05/01/2022 18:36

I don't know if this is because I'm ASD and see things quite black and white (I always let people know this as I'm so anxious about someone being upset by what I say) but I just see it as factual, as in the NHS need to inform everyone that anyone with a cervix can get cervical cancer, so that people who are trans still know to get checked out if their symptoms match whatever is listed in the rest of the article. I don't think the intention was there to make women feel diminished. I imagine it must be so difficult to try and find inclusive phrasing for this sort of thing.

Jellycatspyjamas · 05/01/2022 18:37

The vast majority of people have their sex observed at birth, through the presence of primary sex organs - only in the case of intersex people is sex assigned at birth. Gender is a different issue, a social construct based on stereotypes of dress, manner, activities. I’d like my health care to be provided on the basis of biological sex - whether that’s termed female or woman I don’t much care but being reduced to “people with a cervix” is pretty offensive to me.

Non-binary and trans people know their biological sex, if they don’t know they have a cervix or a prostate something has gone badly wrong in our health care and our education. If someone has transitioned they must surely know what that entailed and whether they have retained their cervix or prostate. I don’t buy the “someone who has transitioned might think cervical screening doesn’t apply to them”. They know they were born a woman, they know the extent to which they have transitioned and would certainly know whether they had surgery which involved removing their cervix or there is something wrong with the concept of informed consent. It’s an easy thing to word information in terms of “females and people who have a cervix”, why wouldn’t they do that rather than wipe out representation of half the population?

Aroundtheworldin80moves · 05/01/2022 18:38

Challenge: Describe what a cervix is without mentioning the words Woman or Female...

PonyPatter44 · 05/01/2022 18:38

Maybe most transmen have enough common sense to know they don't have prostates.

Lexinoonoo · 05/01/2022 18:41

[quote PurplePansy05]@OrangeShark27 Why doesn't it say then:

Women and anyone else with a cervix can get cervical cancer. This includes trans and non-binary people with a cervix. ?[/quote]
Totally agree

ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 18:42

@Aroundtheworldin80moves

Challenge: Describe what a cervix is without mentioning the words Woman or Female...
The lower, narrow end of the uterus that forms a canal between the uterus and vagina.
Clymene · 05/01/2022 18:42

@monsterflake

I don't know if this is because I'm ASD and see things quite black and white (I always let people know this as I'm so anxious about someone being upset by what I say) but I just see it as factual, as in the NHS need to inform everyone that anyone with a cervix can get cervical cancer, so that people who are trans still know to get checked out if their symptoms match whatever is listed in the rest of the article. I don't think the intention was there to make women feel diminished. I imagine it must be so difficult to try and find inclusive phrasing for this sort of thing.
So why do you think that transwomen don't need to be reminded that they too need to be checked for prostate cancer?

Do you think men are cleverer than women? I'm guessing not so can you posit an alternative reason?

Jellycatspyjamas · 05/01/2022 18:42

And it could also be very isolating and invalidating if somewhere as official as the NHS didn't include them.

Absolutely, that’s exactly how I feel as a woman when I’m reduced to parts of my anatomy. Ok to isolate and invalidate a whole biological sex making up 50% of the population at the cost of a small proportion of the population who chose to identify as a particular gender when it would be such an easy thing to include both.

PonyPatter44 · 05/01/2022 18:43

@monsterflake

I don't know if this is because I'm ASD and see things quite black and white (I always let people know this as I'm so anxious about someone being upset by what I say) but I just see it as factual, as in the NHS need to inform everyone that anyone with a cervix can get cervical cancer, so that people who are trans still know to get checked out if their symptoms match whatever is listed in the rest of the article. I don't think the intention was there to make women feel diminished. I imagine it must be so difficult to try and find inclusive phrasing for this sort of thing.
Youre missing the point. ONLY women have a cervix, whether those women wish to present as a different gender or not. Even if you've grown a beard and call yourself Bill, you know whats in your pants, whether you like it or not.

But some women, especially those with learning difficulties or who don't have English as their first language, may not understand the whole convoluted language business, and not realise its aimed at them. Using the word "women" is inclusive of all those who need cervical smears.

ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 18:43

@monsterflake thank you! you've managed to voice things i couldn't find the words for :]

Clymene · 05/01/2022 18:43

Does everyone have a vagina and cervix @ErynIsTrans?

RussiasGreatestLoveMachine · 05/01/2022 18:43

It’s quite obvious that women and transmen don’t matter.

Transwomen and men are the ones who need to be specifically catered for.

ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 18:45

@RussiasGreatestLoveMachine

It’s quite obvious that women and transmen don’t matter.

Transwomen and men are the ones who need to be specifically catered for.

well trans men (who haven't had lower surgery) are often included in the people with a cervix category! so it is helping everyone involved