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NHS Language Excluding Women

208 replies

PurplePansy05 · 04/01/2022 23:10

I am adding this in the Chat section, not a dedicated Feminism/Gender section or AIBU because I would like to have a wider and preferably not heated discussion about this.

I came across this NHS page:

www.nhs.uk/conditions/cervical-cancer/causes/

and the language:

Anyone with a cervix can get cervical cancer. This includes trans and non-binary people with a cervix.

has made me feel very uncomfortable. This page was recently reviewed, September 2021. It's the second time I came across this on the NHS website, I can't find the other page now.

Whilst I understand everyone's right to perceive themselves how they wish to, feel how they wish to about anything including their own gender, and that to be respected, I do not understand why this page does not refer to women. Women are by far the main and key group of interest here. I personally do not identify as a person with a cervix. I identify as a woman, always have and always will, and I would like to be referred to as a woman.

I do not understand why this term is being eradicated. It's not an inclusive approach by any measure.

Am I missing something? Is my thinking flawed? Is the same happening with the term "men"?

OP posts:
RussiasGreatestLoveMachine · 05/01/2022 18:47

@monsterflake

I don't know if this is because I'm ASD and see things quite black and white (I always let people know this as I'm so anxious about someone being upset by what I say) but I just see it as factual, as in the NHS need to inform everyone that anyone with a cervix can get cervical cancer, so that people who are trans still know to get checked out if their symptoms match whatever is listed in the rest of the article. I don't think the intention was there to make women feel diminished. I imagine it must be so difficult to try and find inclusive phrasing for this sort of thing.
All very lovely.

Except the NHS is very clearly not using that same reasoning when it comes to male disease and illness….?

For those, they just refer to men.

ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 18:50

I'm sure it takes a while to change these things, and nothing will happen immediately! But you're right! It should be on the pages for people with a penis too!

Ijustreallywantacat · 05/01/2022 18:50

Youre missing the point. ONLY women have a cervix, whether those women wish to present as a different gender or not. Even if you've grown a beard and call yourself Bill, you know whats in your pants, whether you like it or not.

Whether you like it or not, lots of people would disagree with you. Its important that they feel represented in healthcare too. This page uses the word 'woman' as well.

But some women, especially those with learning difficulties or who don't have English as their first language, may not understand the whole convoluted language business, and not realise its aimed at them. Using the word "women" is inclusive of all those who need cervical smears.

I think that women with trouble understanding English would struggle with the rest of the page whether it had woman plastered all over it or not.

ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 18:54

@Ijustreallywantacat

Youre missing the point. ONLY women have a cervix, whether those women wish to present as a different gender or not. Even if you've grown a beard and call yourself Bill, you know whats in your pants, whether you like it or not.

Whether you like it or not, lots of people would disagree with you. Its important that they feel represented in healthcare too. This page uses the word 'woman' as well.

But some women, especially those with learning difficulties or who don't have English as their first language, may not understand the whole convoluted language business, and not realise its aimed at them. Using the word "women" is inclusive of all those who need cervical smears.

I think that women with trouble understanding English would struggle with the rest of the page whether it had woman plastered all over it or not.

THIS ^
lightnesspixie · 05/01/2022 18:54

Is there a leaflet that says 'anyone with a prostate can get prostate cancer'? I bet not. Just like we say ppl with vaginas but not ppl with penises.

ShrillSiren · 05/01/2022 19:01

So, how do we know who's got a cervix? How will we teach children for example? I've got 3 children, how do I know which ones will need cervical smears when they are older?

Barbarantia · 05/01/2022 19:02

Women's health just started centering women but now has lost its center in the name of catering to everyone.
Time to center female organs instead...
I'm not even sure what that means.
The liver in a female body is a female liver. It's a female organ which may respond differently to diseases and treatment because it is in a female body.
The hyper sexualisation of everything which is reducing us to reproductive organs is getting on my nerves.

Franca123 · 05/01/2022 19:02

[quote ErynIsTrans]@PurplePansy05 Of course you can identify as a woman and be called a woman! It is simply inclusivity. For example, lets say a non-binary person with a cervix went onto the NHS website and saw that only women can get cervical cancer, they may assume that that meant that they couldn't get it as they aren't a woman, which could be dangerous. Or a trans woman who doesn't have a cervix could see that and think that they could also get cervical cancer. Hence, people with a cervix is used. That doesn't make you any less a woman, or me any less non-binary! It is simply a medical term to help with understanding and diagnosis.[/quote]
How can someone be so delusional as to not understand the sex they were born and now remain?

Ijustreallywantacat · 05/01/2022 19:02

Is there a leaflet that says 'anyone with a prostate can get prostate cancer'? I bet not. Just like we say ppl with vaginas but not ppl with penises.

You're absolutely right. That should happen. I would be the first to applaud if it did

Barbarantia · 05/01/2022 19:04

To me, woman was a pretty inclusive word already. It was the men who struggled to accept those who were different in their midst. Grr.

Jellycatspyjamas · 05/01/2022 19:06

Or a trans woman who doesn't have a cervix could see that and think that they could also get cervical cancer.

Which is where the level of cognitive dissonance involved in believing you can change sex is actually dangerous and shouldn’t be validated. If a trans woman really doesn’t understand that socially transitioning doesn’t change their biology, which remains male, and that even post surgery they won’t have a cervix in the functional sense, there’s something badly wrong.

monsterflake · 05/01/2022 19:11

I don't know why you would think I don't agree with anyone who is at risk of a specific illness due to their anatomy being included in reminders to get checked out. I personally wouldn't of read into it any further. A lot of people need reminding of routine screenings or encouragement not to just ignore certain things because they are busy or embarrassed or whatever their reasoning. I don't think it's anything to do with intelligence.

I do however agree with the point another poster made about using the word woman/women for those with limited understanding due to language or learning difficulties.

Clymene · 05/01/2022 19:17

Any transwoman who believes they have a cervix is clearly mentally I'll and so I would be very worried that their medical team thought they were capable of committing to any kind of surgery.

BloomingTrees · 05/01/2022 20:25

ErynIsTrans

How does one know if one has a cervix ?
If I didn't know and saw a poster for people with cervixes how would I know if it applies to me?

How do I know if I have a prostate ? Can I have a prostate and a cervix at the same time ?

Not everyone can remember their GCSE biology lessons.

Screening programs are supposed to reach as much of the population as possible. Shouldn't the language be as clear as possible? This isn't about not offending people but saving lives.

ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 20:27

@ShrillSiren

So, how do we know who's got a cervix? How will we teach children for example? I've got 3 children, how do I know which ones will need cervical smears when they are older?
If you are worried that your child might be intersex, you should contact your doctor/GP! If this is a serious concern, you might want to go soon so they can receive the best treatment and care. Although, most parents of intersex children are told at the birth of the child.
ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 20:29

@Barbarantia

To me, woman was a pretty inclusive word already. It was the men who struggled to accept those who were different in their midst. Grr.
I personally don't find that word inclusive at all! (i am assigned female at birth) It honestly feels like I'm being erased :/
Clymene · 05/01/2022 20:33

But you know you are female @ErynIsTrans. You're not being 'erased' if a medical professional is treating you for a cancer which only affects women.

Your biology is not your gender identity.

Jellycatspyjamas · 05/01/2022 20:33

How are you being erased - have they deleted the word that describes you as they have women?

MythicalBiologicalFennel · 05/01/2022 20:35

@ShrillSiren

So, how do we know who's got a cervix? How will we teach children for example? I've got 3 children, how do I know which ones will need cervical smears when they are older?
It's a mystery, isn't it?
Aroundtheworldin80moves · 05/01/2022 20:42

The NHS really needs to find a way of recording biological sex and identity as separate things. Its important medical information.

RussiasGreatestLoveMachine · 05/01/2022 20:43

I personally don't find that word inclusive at all! (i am assigned female at birth) It honestly feels like I'm being erased :/

By removing the word ‘woman/women’, I feel erased.

BloomingTrees · 05/01/2022 20:47

So, how do we know who's got a cervix? How will we teach children for example? I've got 3 children, how do I know which ones will need cervical smears when they are older?

If you are worried that your child might be intersex, you should contact your doctor/GP! If this is a serious concern, you might want to go soon so they can receive the best treatment and care. Although, most parents of intersex children are told at the birth of the child.

Why would she be worried her children are intersex ? I have two children who have seen drs for general checkups - not one dr has ever told me whether or not they have a cervix or a prostate or that there is any concern for their development.

Livpool · 05/01/2022 20:50

@CheeseMmmm

Girljulian-

'I also think people get the wrong end of the stick when worrying about the word "mother" being used -- they think it's about trans women (biological males) but my lesbian friends find that "the pregnant partner" prevents the non-birth partner feeling erased as a mother. They are both mothers, it's just specifying which element refers to the pregnant person.'

I think there's a whole load of other factors here tbh.

  1. We're mammals. Female mammals grow and give birth to babies. Before formula, same as all mammals, breast milk, generally from the mother, was to the difference between life and death.
For other mammals. We've all seen nature progs where there are new babies. In situations where the mother dies while they tiny, or gets separated from them. There's doom music and sad voice narrator. Why? If in mammals the mother is vital. What makes us so different that we can just discard the word that links a mother to her young?
  1. Pregnancy the baby knows your heartbeat as the constant background while they grow. Human babies are born very dependent compared to other mammals. The constant is mother. Heartbeat. Food. Important.
Yes babies have others hold them and yes others feed them and etc. But the specific relationship between a woman and her child is different. I thought this was woowoo nonsense until I had my own children.
  1. In some USA States with gestational surrogacy. The birth certificate has no mother on it, if it's a single man or male couple who are the commissioning parents.
No mother. That to me feels really totally wrong.
  1. In UK woman who gives birth is legal mother. Push for few years to move to USA style approach of some states. Binding contract. Gestator. Commissing parent/s can become legal parents before birth. Gestator (mother) nothing to do with the baby she has inside her. Such a male view of reproduction. Anyway moves for few years for UK to change laws to California style system. govt consultation think we will see changes to laws.
  1. This should be about baby. What is best for them. Babies have one mother, the woman who bore them. That is important and it's a fact. Unless the definition of mother is to be changed. It's also important to recognise what it involved for the woman who carried and birthed the baby.

Across the world usually the first sound babies make is a minimum sound. And mostly the person a newborn knows is of fundamental importance is their mum.
That's why in a huge number of languages, the word for mum is similar.
Next sound generally dadada and that goes to second person generally dad.
I imagine this means that babies around the world and for millennia have been doing it wrong? GrinConfusedHmm

Completely agree

My friend and her wife have a baby (wife carried the baby) they are both called 'mum'. The mother still gave birth to their daughter.

ErynIsTrans · 05/01/2022 21:06

@BloomingTrees

So, how do we know who's got a cervix? How will we teach children for example? I've got 3 children, how do I know which ones will need cervical smears when they are older?

If you are worried that your child might be intersex, you should contact your doctor/GP! If this is a serious concern, you might want to go soon so they can receive the best treatment and care. Although, most parents of intersex children are told at the birth of the child.

Why would she be worried her children are intersex ? I have two children who have seen drs for general checkups - not one dr has ever told me whether or not they have a cervix or a prostate or that there is any concern for their development.

they asked how they would know lmao and thats how you would know
Barbarantia · 05/01/2022 21:18

@ErynIsTrans women are happy to have you, however you present and whatever gender identity you have.
Isn't that the whole point of being inclusive? Being included in the group? Or do you believe that women accepting means men will reject you? I'm sure they'll be happy to accept you into their social circles seeing as gender is the social aspect of life? They'll know you are a woman biologically so what? They'll accept you as socially masculine. You are accepted into both communities on differing basis. We don't need mental gymnastics and word contortion for it!