Star Hobson’s mother

[HermioneWeasley]

I read as an incidental comment that she had an IQ of 70. This doesn’t seem to have been taken into account by social services in terms of her needing more support or being vulnerable. Does anyone know what would normally happen? It seems like a very significant factor which should have had social services on alert.

She was a vulnerable teenage single mum. In some areas there are special heath visitor's that do intensive work from pregnancy with young vulnerable women like this eg care leavers. She should have been getting this support. If her support needs had been met Star would likely still be alive.

Vulnerable mothers are often targeted by would be child abusers. It's another form of grooming.

@Malibuismysecrethome

Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think her family (who would know) have mentioned her learning difficulties or that she was like a 12 year old.

Yes they did, many times

Its definitely not an excuse but could be a reason as to why she was easy to manipulate.
Her family also mentioned Smith was terrified of her gf at times and often had bruises and injuries

I used to work for a company that devised IQ and psychometric tests. The thing is some people just aren’t very good at the tests themselves as they’re often mathematically based and if they do offer a verbal version it still rests on the person having an academic ability - whereas actually many people are intelligent socially and emotionally and even “world wise” without having those skills, and will therefore score badly. (As part of my job I used to administer the tests). It’s not as cut and dry as people think.

There were a few girls who I went to school with who I believe would have been classed as having a very low IQ or borderline SEN. These girls were very easily manipulated and seemed to be targeted by older, abusive partners and were extremley easily swayed. It isn't a stretch to imagine that FS was like this too. I know that one of these girls had trouble with making her baby formula bottles (either adding too much or too little formula) and still needs alot of support from her family because she really is not capable of taking care of a baby - or herself for that matter. FS was cruel and vile but I don't think she necessarily understood the implications of what she was doing, she should never be left in charge of a child ever again and I think she should be living in some sort of supported accommodation to prevent her falling prey to another abuser - but I think the sentence was right. Savanna on the other hand is a vile, evil excuse of a human being and deserves to rot for all she's done.

@Malibuismysecrethome

Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think her family (who would know) have mentioned her learning difficulties or that she was like a 12 year old.

They described her as “the girl who never grew up”. Didn’t pass any exams, didn’t have an aspirations (her sister went on to uni), a “softy” who was still playing with dolls at the age of 16.

@UltraVividLament

An IQ of 70 would have been very apparent at school, as it is significantly below the norm. Likely her CAT scores would have reflected this. But, having a very low IQ doesn't say much about you in terms of your emotional development and people with that low an IQ would still be able to tell right from wrong. It also isn't an automatic trigger for social services to be involved in an adult's life.

It does make someone much more susceptible to influence from more intelligent people with more dominant personalities. Children I have taught with this kind of IQ are often very easily led.

This is a really important point. IQ and many other tests test knowledge and information in certain ways. Often people who struggle with learning needs or other SEN are very emotionally immature. And the being easily led is important. The older they get the harder it is to inform them and help them to understand.

(This doesn't mean I don't agree with the sentences/the appeal regarding sentences etc. This is a(nother) shocking case).

@MichelleScarn

By googling, it suggests a mental age of about 12.

My 5 yo would know its not right to purposely hurt or be cruel to someone in the way Star Hobsons mother behaved.

Well bully for your 5 your old. Do YOU not have the capacity to understand that many people with learning needs and other SEN do not have that ability to understand that? You sound ignorant.

@Candyss I’m really sorry to hear about your mum and I hope she went on to have a better life after she left.

Re the discussion I’m out. It seems to be a cycle of of suppositions and speculation - so she has a mental age of 8 now? I would encourage some of you to go and read the judges closing comments on FS and how she had been capable of doing more to protect Star but didn’t, for her own ends. Even taking into account her immaturities and low level of intelligence. The discussion seems to be going round in circles and mostly ignoring the judgements of the court.

@felulageller

She was a vulnerable teenage single mum. In some areas there are special heath visitor's that do intensive work from pregnancy with young vulnerable women like this eg care leavers. She should have been getting this support. If her support needs had been met Star would likely still be alive.

Vulnerable mothers are often targeted by would be child abusers. It's another form of grooming.

My previous health visitor left to work with teenage mums and their babies. It was something she had always wanted to do.

I would also be questioning how on earth the father of Star thought FS was a good catch, enough to get her pregnant. Absolute tragedy waiting to happen. FS was obviously vulnerable herself, bringing an even more vulnerable child into the world in turn...

Well bully for your 5 your old. Do YOU not have the capacity to understand that many people with learning needs and other SEN do not have that ability to understand that? You sound ignorant.

And you @spongedog sound an absolute delight.

Lots of social workers should be taking a long hard look at their caseloads. It is appalling that children whose families have reported them as being in danger are left in these awful situations.

I only have experience of adult services social workers but my experience was there was a culture of pass the case like pass the parcel. Very little continuity and lots of do nothing or reactive behaviour rather than being proactive.

Concerns about star were passed by numerous different people. She should have been examined by a doctor at the very least. Poor little baby.

@nomoneytreehere

Lots of social workers should be taking a long hard look at their caseloads. It is appalling that children whose families have reported them as being in danger are left in these awful situations.

I only have experience of adult services social workers but my experience was there was a culture of pass the case like pass the parcel. Very little continuity and lots of do nothing or reactive behaviour rather than being proactive.

Concerns about star were passed by numerous different people. She should have been examined by a doctor at the very least. Poor little baby.

Social workers already know that their caseloads are unsafe though?

Managers know, local authorities know, Ofsted know, the government knows.

What are social workers supposed to do about it

It’s relevant because below 70 is an actual learning disability afaik

It should have been flagged up and given due attention

By googling, it suggests a mental age of about 12.

So if she has a mental age of 12 what is the actual significance? Kids this age still know right and wrong, can be criminally responsible.

I think it's true she was manipulated and probably mistreated herself from what Star's father said.

I think it's wholly irrelevant if she or any parent is responsible for a child. As an adult, do what you like but she still had a duty of care to Star. She selfishly refused to give up custody - for whatever reason, probably scared of being punished for partaking in abuse herself.

Harris
"I would also be questioning how on earth the father of Star thought FS was a good catch, enough to get her pregnant. "

Are you serious? She might have been of low intelligence but all the photos in the media of FS show a really quite strikingly beautiful young girl - admittedly the mug shot from custody not so but the social media ones i thought showed her as very physically attractive and most young men of that age do not give a flying fig whether the woman they are having sex with would be a good mother or not should they get pregnant. He was just shagging her, their relationship ended shortly after Star was born.

@Gingerbreadhoose

Not bright enough/cabable to know the difference between wrong or right but still bright enough/capable to bring a child into this world.

Animals don't know the difference between right and wrong, but they still have sex and reproduce.

Having sex and getting pregnant are not evidence you are a mature or capable individual.

She was able to consent to sex, I think that's the point being made. She has enough capacity to know better

Capacity to consent to sex isn't the same as capacity to raise a child.

And mental age is incredibly unhelpful and I'm amazed people on here saying they are involved in the services are using that term. It's not a thing! And don't get me started on the gorilla analogy. FFS.

The fact is SS don't have the resources. They aren't psychic and can only work with the information they have. And they will have multiple cases with similar levels of risk. SWs don't get 'easy' cases. Everyone believes they know what they would do in order to stop this. And who to blame. But in the real world, there are sometimes not good options, no easy answers, no obvious course.

@nomoneytreehere

Lots of social workers should be taking a long hard look at their caseloads. It is appalling that children whose families have reported them as being in danger are left in these awful situations.

I only have experience of adult services social workers but my experience was there was a culture of pass the case like pass the parcel. Very little continuity and lots of do nothing or reactive behaviour rather than being proactive.

Concerns about star were passed by numerous different people. She should have been examined by a doctor at the very least. Poor little baby.

My friend is a social worker: she is masters qualified but due to short staffing and lack of resources at least part of her day is spent showing and demonstrating basic life skills to the parents of her highest risk parents even though she knows they are lying about not knowing. For example she spent ages showing one lazy piece of shit how to clean the toilet which was in a disgusting state - this lady is too lazy to get up to take her kids to school, is apparently ‘agorophobic’ and that’s why her kids starve but she can always find a way to get her own food / cigarettes / alcohol. But because she’s ‘engaging’ and letting social workers into her home and asking questions, and things do improve for a bit, she is allowed to keep her kids. My friend hopes the 5 high profile child murders shown in the press recently will force things to change & maybe even attract people to sw who could add value in spotting signs of neglect - eg retired nurses / paramedics, men with child and adult personal care experience, etc etc.

@CoffeeMuggins

I am not excusing anyone's behaviour, definitely not, but people really need to try to take the emotional aspect out of this to try and understand what has happened here.

FS has the maturity of someone around the age of 8. No one would say these things about an 8 year old that was physically also 8 who was being abused and manipulated into doing and believing things that an adult told them. That's the dynamic we have here. A grown woman manipulating an 8 year old in a teenagers body.

That said, FS should never be allowed to be alone with a child again because she isn't mature enough and could very easily fall in to the same sort of relationship where horrible things can happen again. She may be many things, but I don't think evil is one of the things we can call her.

Agreed.

We learn nothing by getting emotional or bloodthirsty. And we really do need to learn in order to set up structures to prevent similar atrocities.

She is clearly impaired in her judgement, easily led, and easily influenced.

It is highly doubtful that she would understand that Star could die. She may well have limited problem solving skills for how to resolve the "be kind to Star, keep my overbearing, volatile partner happy" conflict.

She is rightly in prison. She will never be allowed to have care of another child. Her behaviour was horrible. But ignoring the drivers of it and calling her "evil" etc is just pointless.

Social Workers need more time, support and specialist training, including in recognising low functioning inadequate parents.

@MichelleScarn

By googling, it suggests a mental age of about 12.

My 5 yo would know its not right to purposely hurt or be cruel to someone in the way Star Hobsons mother behaved.

Honestly.... my 21 month old responds to other peoples pain and is saddened by it. I think there must be more to it that just having the mindset of a 12 year old. Most 12 year olds just wouldn't.... can't even bear to think it

@Bagelsandbrie

I used to work for a company that devised IQ and psychometric tests. The thing is some people just aren’t very good at the tests themselves as they’re often mathematically based and if they do offer a verbal version it still rests on the person having an academic ability - whereas actually many people are intelligent socially and emotionally and even “world wise” without having those skills, and will therefore score badly. (As part of my job I used to administer the tests). It’s not as cut and dry as people think.

I think we can safely assume that Star's mother exhibited no sign of being socially or emotionally intelligent. On the contrary, she was clearly in the thrall of an outrageously dangerous partner which is about as concrete as you can get in terms of lacking EQ.

@SylvanianFrenemies

She is clearly impaired in her judgement, easily led, and easily influenced.

It is highly doubtful that she would understand that Star could die. She may well have limited problem solving skills for how to resolve the "be kind to Star, keep my overbearing, volatile partner happy" conflict.

She is rightly in prison. She will never be allowed to have care of another child. Her behaviour was horrible. But ignoring the drivers of it and calling her "evil" etc is just pointless.

Social Workers need more time, support and specialist training, including in recognising low functioning inadequate parents.

What is to stop her getting pregnant when she leaves prison?

What is to stop her getting pregnant when she leaves prison?

A day in the life of a SW.

Try to work out if she's in a relationship. Literally everyone will lie about this. Try to work out if the wo/man concerned is abusive. Ditto. If you even get any information, you need to have a capacity decision made, can she consent? OK so she can consent but only just, she's right on the cusp. And the man (because we're talking about pregnancy) is worrying but no solid evidence he's abusive. You talk about using contraception but either it's "yes I will" she won't or "but I want another baby, I'm so sad" she also won't. Remember she has capacity. She gets pregnant but doesn't seek care so you have no idea. She drinks/uses through the pregnancy because she's traumatised. Baby is born, let's hope you know well before then. Baby is removed but it's a very very difficult process. Baby is alcohol impacted. Dodgy father wants custody, you don't think this is in baby's best interest. No solid evidence. Baby stays with dad and mum definitely is around but no solid evidence. Neglect and abuse.

Wait 16 years.

Repeat.