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who decides whether French nouns are masculine or feminine?

221 replies

seethesuninwintertime · 19/11/2021 17:47

I know people say it's random except for people and animals but it's not is it? Someone somewhere - may Louis the something - must have decided for once and for all that breasts masculine and beards are feminine and made everyone else agree? And that people who switched it over were wrong.
Or does it follow what they were in Latin? In which case who in Rome decided?

i think we should be told.

OP posts:
GrrrlPwr · 23/11/2021 18:44

It still amazes me that Brits will go to a foreign country and just expect others to be able to speak in English to them. Such astounding arrogance. I always try and learn a few phrases, I just can't assume they will speak English.

StartupRepair · 23/11/2021 19:30

I know a little Finnish. Not only is there no gender in nouns but they have one word - han- for he or she.

EBearhug · 24/11/2021 00:34

I think french German etc would be easier to learn as a native English speaker if you'd had to do some Latin. I didn't and all the cases were mystifying. Mind you, we also didn't get taught English grammar either. We just had to 'pick it up'.

I had Latin A-level by the time I started German evening classes, and I found it much easier than others in the class, as I already understood the cases.

mathanxiety · 24/11/2021 00:39

I learned all about cases through Irish. Irish has just about every grammatical twist known to European languages.

mathanxiety · 24/11/2021 00:41

And in Welsh, bloody mutations. How hard do you have to make it for learners to have words changing at the start of the word?

You need to understand the cases.

mathanxiety · 24/11/2021 00:42

Russian is a Slavic language, which is a European language family.

mathanxiety · 24/11/2021 00:46

Like, in English, you can easiy build a sentence with more or less one-to-one equivalents between letters and sounds like "the cat sat on the mat". Kid learns letters and sounds, job's a good'un

Au contraire, English is a language that really does not lend itself to the phonetic method of learning to read beyond very simple examples involving cats and mats.

This is because English consists of several strands from different languages, with lingering orthographic quirks from many of them.

mathanxiety · 24/11/2021 00:49

There are so many ways of representing a particular sound and there are lots of irregular verbs.

If you listen closely, you will find the sounds are different. It's a case of training your ear, not despairing that there are too may ways of representing the same sound.

MimiDaisy11 · 24/11/2021 01:01

@GrrrlPwr

It still amazes me that Brits will go to a foreign country and just expect others to be able to speak in English to them. Such astounding arrogance. I always try and learn a few phrases, I just can't assume they will speak English.
I think that’s good to do but I’ve found it frustrating when I go to countries where I speak some of the language and I try speak the language with a native and so many times I get them replying in English. I can see how it would discourage a person from making the effort.

Also I’ve heard more non native English speakers complain about people not speaking English in certain places as they see it as lingua franca.

RustyBear · 24/11/2021 01:05

On the subject of French children never getting it wrong, the Lord Peter Wimsey story 'The Entertaining Episode Of The Article In Question' hinges on this.

KeflavikAirport · 24/11/2021 07:41

@mathanxiety if course English spelling us complicated but when you're teaching children to read it's easy to build a sentence with regular phoneme-letter matches, which it isn't in French.

MythicalBiologicalFennel · 24/11/2021 15:56

Welsh has to be the worst language from the point of view of getting to grips with grammatical gender as a learner. Pretty much no gender markers anywhere but gender has a huge, inescapable impact on grammar (hello, mutations!).

I have often pondered if Welsh should just get rid of mutations altogether but I can't quite bring myself to say things like fy ceg instead of fy ngheg or y gardd instead of yr ardd.

TatianaBis · 24/11/2021 20:05

[quote KeflavikAirport]if given an unknown word in both, French much easier to know how to pronounce

This makes sense. I did a bit of digging and found the orthographic depth hypothesis: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthographic_depth#:~:text=The%20orthographic%20depth%20of%20an,%2Done%20letter%E2%80%93phoneme%20correspondence.&text=In%20shallow%20orthographies%2C%20the%20spelling,to%20pronounce%20the%20word%20correctly.[/quote]
By that assessment, both English and French are deep orthographies.

KeflavikAirport · 25/11/2021 06:18

Yes compared to other languages they're in the middle ground but English is deeper than French from what I understand.

megletthesecond · 25/11/2021 06:36

I've often wondered this. I always assume it's something to do with Latin.

mathanxiety · 25/11/2021 06:38

@KeflavikAirport, French is far easier to teach phonetically than English is, and consistent right the way through.

With English, teachers are basically lying to children by suggesting that all the words they'll encounter can be tackled by sounding out or by reference to early phonics. It's simply not true.

You are just not hearing the varied sounds of French so the phoneme matching is hard.

MrsFin · 25/11/2021 17:29

I agree, once you know how to pronounce French, or Welsh, or German, or most other languages in have a working knowledge of, the pronunciation never varies.
English gives you the joys of cough, enough, bough, glove, hove, move, read/read and so on.

MrsFin · 25/11/2021 17:35

Have you ever seen this?

Poem of English Pronunciation
Dearest creature in creation,
Study English pronunciation.
I will teach you in my verse
Sounds like corpse, corps, horse, and worse.
I will keep you, Suzy, busy,
Make your head with heat grow dizzy.
Tear in eye, your dress will tear.
So shall I! Oh hear my prayer.
Just compare heart, beard, and heard,
Dies and diet, lord and word,
Sword and sward, retain and Britain.
(Mind the latter, how it's written.)
Now I surely will not plague you
With such words as plaque and ague.
But be careful how you speak:
Say break and steak, but bleak and streak;
Cloven, oven, how and low,
Script, receipt, show, poem, and toe.
Hear me say, devoid of trickery,
Daughter, laughter, and Terpsichore,
Typhoid, measles, topsails, aisles,
Exiles, similes, and reviles;
Scholar, vicar, and cigar,
Solar, mica, war and far;
One, anemone, Balmoral,
Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel;
Gertrude, German, wind and mind,
Scene, Melpomene, mankind.
Billet does not rhyme with ballet,
Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet.
Blood and flood are not like food,
Nor is mould like should and would.
Viscous, viscount, load and broad,
Toward, to forward, to reward.
And your pronunciation's OK
When you correctly say croquet,
Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve,
Friend and fiend, alive and live.
Ivy, privy, famous; clamour
And enamour rhymes with hammer.
River, rival, tomb, bomb, comb,
Doll and roll and some and home.
Stranger does not rhyme with anger,
Neither does devour with clangour.
Souls but foul, haunt but aunt,
Font, front, wont, want, grand, and grant,
Shoes, goes, does. Now first say finger,
And then singer, ginger, linger,
Real, zeal, mauve, gauze, gouge and gauge,
Marriage, foliage, mirage, and age.
Query does not rhyme with very,
Nor does fury sound like bury.
Dost, lost, post and doth, cloth, loth.
Job, nob, bosom, transom, oath.
Though the differences seem little,
We say actual but victual.
Refer does not rhyme with deafer.
Foeffer does, and zephyr, heifer.
Mint, pint, senate and sedate;
Dull, bull, and George ate late.
Scenic, Arabic, Pacific,
Science, conscience, scientific.
Liberty, library, heave and heaven,
Rachel, ache, moustache, eleven.
We say hallowed, but allowed,
People, leopard, towed, but vowed.
Mark the differences, moreover,
Between mover, cover, clover;
Leeches, breeches, wise, precise,
Chalice, but police and lice;
Camel, constable, unstable,
Principle, disciple, Petal, panel, and canal,
Wait, surprise, plait, promise, pal.
Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair,
Senator, spectator, mayor.
Tour, but our and succour, four.
Gas, alas, and Arkansas.
Sea, idea, Korea, area,
Psalm, Maria, but malaria.
Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean.
Doctrine, turpentine, marine.
Compare alien with Italian,
Dandelion and battalion.
Sally with ally, yea, ye,
Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, and key.
Say aver, but ever, fever,
Neither, leisure, skein, deceiver.
Heron, granary, canary.
Crevice and device and aerie.
Face, but preface, not efface.
Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass.
Large, but target, gin, give, verging,
Ought, out, joust and scour, scourging.
Ear, but earn and wear and tear
Do not rhyme with here but ere.
Seven is right, but so is even,
Hyphen, roughen, nephew Stephen,
Monkey, donkey, Turk and jerk,
Ask, grasp, wasp, and cork and work.
Pronunciation -- think of Psyche!
Is a paling stout and spikey?
Won't it make you lose your wits,
Writing groats and saying grits?
It's a dark abyss or tunnel:
Strewn with stones, stowed, solace, gunwale,
Islington and Isle of Wight,
Housewife, verdict and indict.
Finally, which rhymes with enough?
Though, through, plough, or dough, or cough?
Hiccough has the sound of cup.
My advice is give it up!

ColinTheKoala · 25/11/2021 19:33

I have found prepositions are usually one of the trickier things to learn - do you go on the bus, by bus, with the bus

most native English speakers don't seem to be able to cope with the right prepositions either - eg saying they are speaking "to" a topic or that they are excited "for" an event, when they mean "about" in both cases. Goodness knows what non-native speakers make of it.

I don't think Finnish and Hungarian have genders. But they are hard to learn in other ways.

English is easy in a lot of ways but most non-native speakers fall at the "I am going I go" hurdle. We just naturally know when to use the "ing" form. Those learning English as a second language don't. That said, there's some room for debate. For example if someone's daughter is at Exeter university. Does she live in Exeter or is she living there? I'd say the latter because her permanent home is with her parents in Liverpool. So she lives in Liverpool and is living in Exeter. In Scotland it would be different again.

In German most foreign nouns tend to be neuter but not always.

ColinTheKoala · 25/11/2021 19:34

@StartupRepair

I know a little Finnish. Not only is there no gender in nouns but they have one word - han- for he or she.
I hadn't read the last page of comments :)
EBearhug · 25/11/2021 22:37

most native English speakers don't seem to be able to cope with the right prepositions either - eg saying they are speaking "to" a topic

Oh my God, I hate the use of "speaking to" a topic, which seems to be replacing "speaking about" it.

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