Air source heat pumps - a bit off putting, or is it just me?

[FolornLawn]

I was surprised to see how big and ugly they are.

This article shows a picture of one, and I wouldn't want it in my small garden. Also the report says people will need room for a boiler and a water cylinder.

I'm quite surprised at how negatively I feel about the new plans. There's something about having to remodel bits of my house and garden that feels like an imposition, when I happily recycle, use washable sanitary pads and kitchen roll, go without a tumble dryer etc. Is it just me?

@LindaLooky

I was a bit put off by the images in the news articles too. Reading this thread is making me more apprehensive as I'm very noise sensitive and would hate to have a noisy pump whirring away. Or hear a whole street of them.

Me too. I’m dreading them, although a poster on another thread (think it was probably Walter) was quite reassuring about noise. I hadn’t even realised what external insulation meant until I read this thread - not much looking forward to that either.

I had been hoping hydrogen would come along and save the day, but I read something recently that suggested that wouldn’t be happening.

[quote nosyupnorth]@RIPWalter

Sorry it won't let me quote you for some reason but

"not allow any sudden jumps in temperature"

Does this mean they can't be turned on and off conveniently? Because that seems prohibitively expensive compared to having gas heat on briefly in the morning and evening and otherwise not in use.[/quote]
I think if you're out all day you'd just do what we do at night and have it set to 14-15. If your home is well insulated then it should stay above this through the day on all but the coldest of weather. We are still playing around with it, but it is definitely more efficient to not keep having the temperature going up and down all the time.

The key to ashp is to insulate insulate insulate and a good assessor/installer should make this very clear that there is absolutely no point having one installed until you have done so.

Because the days when it is glorious sunshine are generally not the days when centrally heating your home is a high priority. If you want solar to provide for you through the grim dull midwinter then you'd need a battery storage system, which would be bulky. Solar panels aren't exactly cheap. ASHP are not noisy

I know solar panels aren’t cheap, but the ASHP isn’t either and it’s also bulky so doesn’t seem a better solution. Maybe we all have anaerobic digesters and make our own gas from our own waste. Or maybe we have wind turbines. Or maybe all of them?

Or maybe someone needs to come up with a better solution - a direct green replacement for gas boiler that costs more or less the same. When you look at everything else that has been invented in the world, this should be possible. ASHPs are NOT good enough.

@Ihaventgottimeforthis

I think this says a lot about human nature and just how badly the message about the climate crisis is being communicated, that there are whole islands and communities around the world who are being devastated by the impacts of climate change, and we're worried about an unsightly appliance in our garden - it's not a dig at you OP, I totally get the individual reluctance, and I WORK in the environment sector. I think the choice may eventually become easier though, as fossil fuel prices continue to increase. We're fully electric, with our own solar panels, in the aim of insulating ourselves against future price shocks. We have an air source heat pump on our new boiler/tank, which works very efficiently in the loft. However air source is not a viable option for our house heating, as we live in an incredibly leaky & inefficient old building, so any warm air going in would just breeze out again. The costs of exterior insulation and replacing all our windows is prohibitive - around 50K - and I will never get payback on that, so I am not going to do it.

I couldn't agree more. It's not uglier than an aircon unit (much more useful and necessary though).

[quote riverpebbles]@80sMum but it is hugely impractical to retrofit existing houses with air circulation systems. Just not feasible, surely? I would love a forced air system like in North America but it just won't happen here in the UK except maybe new builds.

@ZZtop the air source heat pumps that cool as well rely on an air circulation system. If (as is usually the case in the UK) you have water-based radiators, the ASHPs do not cool as well.[/quote]
I agree @riverpebbles . I don't think they're suitable for retro fitting. Only really work in new buildings.
Our house is 100 years old. I don't think a heat pump would work well in it.

We’re fucked when our boiler goes (if it’s after 2025).

We live in a very old house. We can’t beef up the insulation to anywhere near the appropriate level to make heat pumps efficient. They’re great for low carbon houses with good air permeability, but for leaky listed buildings - not so much.

@80smum

Our house is an 1850s Welsh stone crogloft cottage and our ASHP works really well. Assuming your house isn't listed then focus on getting it well insulated with good Windows and I'm sure it would work fine.

I do have concerns however with the obsession with listed properties in this country and think if the government is serious on climate change that they will have to prioritise the future over keeping parts of the UK as a living museum.

Our whole street has them and TBH the noise isn't a problem - I've never heard my neighbours and I've only heard mine when I've gone pretty close to it. My neighbour has mentioned that he's heard mine (not in a negative way, he was mentioning that he thought his was broken) but that's only because mine is on the side of the house pointing towards their side access and bins. If I sit in our garden I can't hear any of them and I've only heard mine if I go within maybe 8-10ft of it.

I think our gas boiler is noisier!

People who have had it done, how big did your new radiators have to be?

We're in what I would describe as a standard 1950s 3 bed semi, fairly small rooms and garden. I'm not sure where we'd put a water cylinder, and there's no way we could afford to fit underfloor heating. I've read radiators need to be 2 1/2 times bigger, we just don't have the wall space! Our boiler is on its last legs, with the new grant I was wondering if it's worth looking into a heat pump but even if the grant brings down cost to comperable to a combi, it looks like thousands on top of that to make our house suitable which is just not doable.

@Xenia

Avoid them as long as you can. They won't work well. they will break down. They are less reliable than a gas boiler. They are very expensive. They may well make a continuous noise which could ruin people's gardens and sitting out there in silence listening to birds. I don't mind if humans die off on this planet a bit sooner (it is good for the planet if we do) so would rather we just stuck with our gas boilers.

That's my feeling wind I'm sure someone in the government wants to make money out of this

At least my gas heating works properly

[quote Hen2018]@CovidCorvid and meant to say, obviously you only do 5cm on outside walls. It’s impossible for all your rooms to have 4 outside walls so it’s not as bad as you might think.[/quote]
Good point.... Do the walls need plastering on top of the new surface?

@Bloatstoat

People who have had it done, how big did your new radiators have to be?

We're in what I would describe as a standard 1950s 3 bed semi, fairly small rooms and garden. I'm not sure where we'd put a water cylinder, and there's no way we could afford to fit underfloor heating. I've read radiators need to be 2 1/2 times bigger, we just don't have the wall space! Our boiler is on its last legs, with the new grant I was wondering if it's worth looking into a heat pump but even if the grant brings down cost to comperable to a combi, it looks like thousands on top of that to make our house suitable which is just not doable.

We had all our radiators replaced and they are definetly not 2.5 times bigger. They are all double radiators (but i think all but one of them was anyway) and still fit where they were before but just a little snugger under the windowsill and little wider in each direction. We are in a 75m2 cottage so it is small and the radiators aren't an issue. We also didn't have room for the hot water cyclinder/ accesories inside so had them fitted into a purpose built timber lean too in the garden (i've already attached a pic earlier in the thread).

@Bloatstoat

People who have had it done, how big did your new radiators have to be?

We're in what I would describe as a standard 1950s 3 bed semi, fairly small rooms and garden. I'm not sure where we'd put a water cylinder, and there's no way we could afford to fit underfloor heating. I've read radiators need to be 2 1/2 times bigger, we just don't have the wall space! Our boiler is on its last legs, with the new grant I was wondering if it's worth looking into a heat pump but even if the grant brings down cost to comperable to a combi, it looks like thousands on top of that to make our house suitable which is just not doable.

TBH, mine seem pretty normal sized to me! I had an old property before (1890ish) and we've moved to a new build and I think our radiators have stayed a fairly constant size.

Actually, just found a measurement - I ordered a radiator cover for one of ours which was 1700mm wide, 900mm tall. This is the only radiator in a room which is 18'1 x 12'2. It is very well insulated though.

Thanks @RIPWalter and @StatisticallyChallenged, that doesn't sound quite so bad! I'm definitely going to look into it properly, nothing to lose if it's not suitable but getting another gas boiler just feels like a shame if there's an alternative.

www.projectheatingsolutions.co.uk/

For anyone seriously considering getting an ASHP i'd recommend this company. They did the entire installation, including changing every radiator in the house in a single day. It was an impressive team effort and they were highly proffessional. Chatting to them, they seem to go all over the UK to do installations.

have also read that you need to have your radiators redone with them as well. I am considering an electric boiler and stay on a green tariff which uses renewable energy.

There will be a thriving market in refurb'd gas & oil boilers.

I know that they say the ASHP outside unit is only 1m x 1m ... .but do you have to keep the area in front of the fan clear? I'm thinking that many houses have patio or decking out the back, with chairs / table / loungers. If you put the ASHP unit on the patio, would you have to keep a certain space clear in front of the fan, so in reality its footprint is much bigger?

(Still don't see where we could put a huge hot water cylinder. House not designed for it.)

@SlipperyLizard

Our new boiler was about £3k 5 years ago (and fitted by British Gas, so likely to be more expensive than others). A ground source heat pump (we have space in the garden) would be more like £15-17k. A £5k grant won’t make that affordable.

This is too little, only the wealthiest (who have money to spare on this) will be able to cover the cost.

What about proper insulation? Double glazing?

Yep, we just had a quote through at £16k not including the £5k we need for cavity wall insulation and loft insulation or any adaptations to our heating system (our radiators aren't the best for ASHP). We are on an old oil boiler and desperate to upgrade, use EVs etc so it's right up our street but there is just no way we can afford it and £5k feels like an insult!

We have an air source heat pump for hot water and heating. We are rural and the only other option is oil. It is a special one that works with existing radiators (Daikin) and it works a treat for our biggish 30s house which is reasonably well insulated. Very little noise. The only issue is that if it breaks down (which it had a couple of times each year) it can take literally weeks to get someone in to fix it. Those weeks are ruddy awful! I'm knitting a shawl with the next breakdown in mind..... it is a big beast though, tall as a tall fridge but thinner, and we do have a hot water tank and a cupboard full of pump equipment, that it just wouldn't work in a tiny flat. My DH is working on launching district heating into new estates all over the country, using waste heat from all sorts of places like call centres, sewage farms, data centres, factories etc etc. I'm guessing for urban dwellings a retrofit (which is possible) of district heat is a more practical solution. I agree the 5k incentive isn't going to incentive people to invest in a 15k pump.

I won't be rushing to get one, boiler is only 4 years old, maybe by the time boiler has come to the end of its life there will be improvements in these.

No doubt mates of the government will be queueing up to pick up a lucrative contract as usually happens, also it's a bit unsavoury that all this eco stuff is coming from the mouth of someone expecting their seventh child

The scheme seems to be equally as ill-thought-out and botched as the previous green homes grants.

Our flat is in a converted Victorian house and is draughty with high ceilings. The local planning team require us to retain wood sash windows, so we have only upgraded half of them from single glazed due to prohibitive cost.

Our boiler is dying and we need to replace it. We care about the climate and want a future for our kids (and theirs we hope!) but replacing the boiler and upgrading 2 radiators has been quoted at £3.6K.

To get the level of insulation needed for an ASHP it's clear that we'd have to pay 10 or 15 times that amount. We just don't have it.

I have no expertise in this area whatsoever but off the top of my head, if I was designing a scheme I'd be:

• recruiting green home advisors into the building regs team of every UK council and giving people access to professional, 121 advice on the greenest possible spec of their home and how to achieve it;
• offering interest-free, income-linked loans to cover the cost, like a student-loans type scheme where no one loses their home if their personal circumstances go to hell;
• then if they want to chuck £5K upfront that's a nice cherry on the top.

By doing only the last one, with apparently no thought of the first 2, the govt is not going to help the majority of UK home owners do what they want and need to do in regards to greening their homes.

The people that will benefit from this will be quite well off anyway and probably not so much in need of the £5k, I can't imagine any family that struggles and is on a tight budget for their shopping each week is going to afford this

Gas central heating was one of the stand out finest things about moving to the UK from a heat pump dominant country. The rapid heating of a cold house was a marvel to me and the quiet of it vs the operating noise of the internal heat pump units was great. They're also quite noisy outside at the main unit(s) which isn't as big of an issue in NZ with more spacing between most houses, but it will be much more irritating here in the UK with houses cheek by jowl.

I'd still love a heat pump for the summer air con, but they won't do the job for heating in the UK and I'll be holding onto my gas boiler as long as I can. ❤

@JenniferAllisonPhillipaSue

I know that they say the ASHP outside unit is only 1m x 1m ... .but do you have to keep the area in front of the fan clear? I'm thinking that many houses have patio or decking out the back, with chairs / table / loungers. If you put the ASHP unit on the patio, would you have to keep a certain space clear in front of the fan, so in reality its footprint is much bigger?

(Still don't see where we could put a huge hot water cylinder. House not designed for it.)

The front of ours is probably less than a meter from our fence, so I think probably not. Within reason I guess - chairs are a bit different to a solid wall! However you wouldn't want to sit in front of it due to the cold air!

We would never have been able to have one in our old house though, there was only one cupboard (under the stairs) in the entire house. It's a much bulkier system than a combi boiler - and ours is even bigger as we have a hybrid system so there's a full size gas boiler in the garage too