Whole class punishments?

[WholeClassKeptIn]

Where do we all stand on whole class punishments? I thought they weren't done anymore but I don't think they're outright banned are they?

My daughter is in yr 5 and is quite rule driven. She has an amazing teacher and I'm happy with school in general and bit worried about becoming "that parent."

But... the teacher I think (obviously hearing this from a child!) Is keeping the children in at break and lunch if the class is noisy. The problem is she knows she is not talking (or her friend next to her) and the sense of injustice is huge. They hate being kept in when they haven't broken any rules.

I know its not long (under 10mins I think) but to a child its ages. she's feeling anxious when other children start talking that she will miss part of her break. When she comes home if it's a "kept in" day it's all she talks about. Its about once a week so far.

This week they were told they were missing "8 minutes" of break the next day (15mins). She didn't want to go to school the next day . I know this is an overreaction but she was worried about going in to be told off for something she's not doing. As it happened she then went to queue for toast after missing the first half, but she waited the reat of break and didn't get toast or to play. She came home quite upset.

I know to adults this seems a small thing and I know it must be incredibly hard for the teacher. But its getting to her as she can't do anything to stop it however quiet she is!

Any thoughts?

Pumperthepumper
Unless I've been to charitable, I think they know the difference but were using 'learning opportunities' as a euphemism to highlight poor pedagogy because staff who do the poor seating plans rarely come out with the real reasons they do it, so dress it up as if it's learning for the children.

It's the same as any sensible teacher knows that peer coaching can be one strategy to stretch more able students when it's appropriate to the task , but there's some teachers out there who think that getting able students to act as TAs or sitting am able child with lower attaining students is their get out of jail free card for able children. They'll never say outright they can't be bothered or aren't able to stretch bright children, so they'll dress it up as a learning strategy when it's obviously not.

@LolaSmiles

Pumperthepumper Unless I've been to charitable, I think they know the difference but were using 'learning opportunities' as a euphemism to highlight poor pedagogy because staff who do the poor seating plans rarely come out with the real reasons they do it, so dress it up as if it's learning for the children.

It's the same as any sensible teacher knows that peer coaching can be one strategy to stretch more able students when it's appropriate to the task , but there's some teachers out there who think that getting able students to act as TAs or sitting am able child with lower attaining students is their get out of jail free card for able children. They'll never say outright they can't be bothered or aren't able to stretch bright children, so they'll dress it up as a learning strategy when it's obviously not.

I read it as someone who fancied having a little teacher bash but messed it up.

Just a tip - when my son was 8 he told the teacher that collective punishment went against the Geneva Convention and they organised a lunchtime protest. Worked a treat apparently.

Pumperthepumper
I see where you're coming from.
I do think some parents see some of the bullshit labels for what they are though. I'd be calling school if DC were given whole class punishments or were always expected to deal with poor behaviour.

I think I'm a bit cynical after sitting in meetings this term hearing some people say 'quality first teaching' as a get out to avoid changing what they do. Sorry if I sounded arsey or grumpy.

@WhenSheWasBad

*What sort of "support" would help a teacher who is completely incapable of figuring out which of her students is talking^

I’ve seen very experienced teachers completely teach the end of their tether with a particular class. They’ve kept the whole class in over break. These teachers are extremely good.
It is just really hard to pinpoint where the noise is coming from when it is more than 15 kids misbehaving and not engaging in work.

She shouldn’t be doing the whole class punishments but I’ll bet behaviour is worse than just 3-4 kids talking. I’ll bet the teacher could cope if it was just 4 kids.

What do you suggest then? The teacher is just left to get on with it or told to leave?

Of course the teacher needs support. Support in behaviour management techniques. Support with building relationships with children in the class.

If a teacher in my school is struggling with anything or is making decisions that others aren't (like whole class punishments) then as a staff we support by giving advice, providing opportunities for that teacher to observe other staff or providing training opportunities.

What do you suggest then? The teacher is just left to get on with it or told to leave? Of course the teacher needs support. Support in behaviour management techniques. Support with building relationships with children in the class

Some actual support for the teacher (or secondary school teachers) dealing with the class would be wonderful. The last school I worked in, had extremely experienced teachers all struggling with an unusually disruptive class. It wasn’t a training issue for the staff. Every single teacher had a complete nightmare with this class and they weren’t supported.

Support would have meant SLT moving some kids into other classes to change the dynamic. Or a frequent presence in the classroom to provide actual support and remove kids causing problems (this could be at least 10 kids at a time).

What SLT did was deliver a severe bollocking to the whole class a few times a week and then disappear.

It’s all very well saying “the teacher needs support”
Some schools have poor behaviour management policies and little backup for the teachers.
That’s why teachers get to the end of their rope with these classes.

@WhenSheWasBad

I agree with you. SLT need to take much more of an active role. I have been there with a class where I felt control had gone and after Covid the challenges have increased significantly.

What I don't agree with is the posters who label the teacher as lazy when they literally have no idea of the challenges or what the teacher has tried up to this point.

Lazy seems the word to accuse teachers, GP's etc when it's the system that is failing them.

A class of 32 with lots of children with undiagnosed SEN because there's no money to provide support could get to the point that the teacher feels a whole class punishment is the only option.

Sherrystrull - I really think this is more likely the case. I don't think hardly any teacher can be lazy with all they go through just to get through the day. Also so aware in general of some of the sen and behaviour issues which can make it so much harder for everyone including the child with difficulties.

I think this is a chatty class so its to stop them chatting but I don't know that as such. Just going on a 9 yr olds view.

I have so much respect for her otherwise hence wanting to know the right way around this. Particulalry when I don't see her it can look like any worried parent making contact is complaining.

With so many others having experienced this too I don't know if me talking about it can make any difference. But I want her to know the effect it is having!

It's definitely worth emailing. I wouldn't give opinions on what you feel about whole class punishments in general but stick to sharing the effect on your daughter and her engagement. I would also include a sentence about how positive you have found the experience your daughter has had so far this year. My oldest dc is very much how you describe your dd.
Good luck.

@LolaSmiles

I know that lazy teachers exist. I just don't like the blanket labelling many posters did. After a while the repeated word becomes associated with teachers in general and I really don't think it's a positive step for our profession.

Sherrystrull
I see your point about it being used a lot to tar the profession. I do still think it's fair to use it to describe certain choices that are, for lack of a better word, ineffective and a bit lazy

Grrrrrrrrrr had parent's evening . First 10 mins (only supposed to be 10mins) were fab. She really knows my child, she's really on it and has set up a fab extra curricular group etc.

Then when I brought it up I was surprised she defended it. She said she didn't like giving up her break time either and that her class was a team and they work as a team. Also said about putting pressure on those who misbehave. I did say that those werent her friends (and its not my daughters job fgs!) And that it was unfair and that my daughter was anxious. The teacher did say my daughter hadn't done anything wrong.

I didn't want to fully argue (lots of parents can be difficult in our school and I know teaching is difficult.) But I was so shocked she'd defend it!

I am hoping maybe it's enough she knows I'm onto it. But will complain if it keeps happening. It may only be a few minutes to her but its a huge thing to my daughter.

Once we got in the car my daughter burst into tears and has spent the evening upset. I admit this is probably an overreaction but she's a teacher's pet type child and just doesn't get why its not fair.

When we brought it up, my dh said ‘according to dd this class is the worst class you’ve ever had?!’ The teacher stumbled on her words, we asked why the whole class was being punished, she really didn’t have an answer.
It was the first time dd1 would go into school crying her eyes out and I couldn’t pinpoint why. She’d happily be dropped off at nursery as a baby toddler and to school. Suddenly she gets to Year 5. It was the stupid punishment. She was being given a punishment even though she was good.
My dds confidence dipped then, it wasn’t good. Do I know how your dd is feeling.

Thankyou. She really did defend it though so seems to think its fine!! She claims it was only once (the big "you lose 8 mins tomorrow" thing was once but theres been lots of times its been 2-3 minutes) so mow my daughter thinks her teacher lies 🙄

@PurpleOkapi
Used correctly it’s very effective. The reward isn’t established before hand because it’s a reinforcer not a bribe. And it would be applied for a behaviour that is sensitive to peer reinforcement rather than something individual like spelling. Billy the class clown is likely to be more motivated by the reaction from his classmates than anything the teacher can say or do. But if you can replace that positive peer reinforcement for the problem behaviour with positive peer reinforcement for a better behaviour, then you change the class dynamic.

But your point stands because when group contingencies are not understood fully they can work very differently than intended, and your example is spot on. But the science is very well established, and it should be a core part of teacher training.

Thanks Lola. I'm kind of wondering whether to see if it happens againandr if thats enough to stop it as she's aware. But she's an established teacher and seems to believe in it. She minimised how long it was though and the team thing and I wasnt assertive enough at this point (we'd already overrun) although I did say it wasnt working for my child/making her anxious etc.

My child is one of those "bright loves school" types and came home so upset. The teacher had said such amazing things about her in the first 10mins I feel a bit bad complaining - she really seems to get her, and is brilliant in so many other ways. I dont want to get her into trouble. She has seen my email and heard my side though now.

• * [post edited by MNHQ to remove personal details] * *

You'll have done well OP. If you want to wait then waiting is OK, but if you want to raise it further then it's also reasonable to. Being an established teachers isn't a free pass for ineffective and poor behaviour techniques.

I've reported your post to MNHQ though as your child's name is in the post and most of the time that happens it's an accident from posters.

@WholeClassKeptIn you have left your DD's name in the last post. My DS is furious about whole class punishments and whole class being told off for something a couple have done. It's a poor teaching style IMO.

I would take this higher up now. Can you maybe organise a meeting or zoom with someone from the senior leadership team, ideally the head or if not the deputy?