Whole class punishments?

[WholeClassKeptIn]

Where do we all stand on whole class punishments? I thought they weren't done anymore but I don't think they're outright banned are they?

My daughter is in yr 5 and is quite rule driven. She has an amazing teacher and I'm happy with school in general and bit worried about becoming "that parent."

But... the teacher I think (obviously hearing this from a child!) Is keeping the children in at break and lunch if the class is noisy. The problem is she knows she is not talking (or her friend next to her) and the sense of injustice is huge. They hate being kept in when they haven't broken any rules.

I know its not long (under 10mins I think) but to a child its ages. she's feeling anxious when other children start talking that she will miss part of her break. When she comes home if it's a "kept in" day it's all she talks about. Its about once a week so far.

This week they were told they were missing "8 minutes" of break the next day (15mins). She didn't want to go to school the next day . I know this is an overreaction but she was worried about going in to be told off for something she's not doing. As it happened she then went to queue for toast after missing the first half, but she waited the reat of break and didn't get toast or to play. She came home quite upset.

I know to adults this seems a small thing and I know it must be incredibly hard for the teacher. But its getting to her as she can't do anything to stop it however quiet she is!

Any thoughts?

In my experience this went out with the ark, and I'm sorry to hear that's not the case everywhere!

Whole class consequences teach the children nothing, apart from the fact that life is unfair. You don't really need to learn that at primary school! If you have a naturally chatty class, one thing that can help with that is...outdoor time where they can let off some steam. So it's illogical to keep them in! And yes - the teacher will wreck relationships operating in this way, and switch learners off. That's not OK.

I would speak to the school, there are plenty of other strategies they could be using to support the whole class in being a bit quieter, or to support individuals as necessary. And if the school is using words like "punishment" they need to wake up to a more nurturing environment based on relationships and communication - it's not 1950.

Also, using food as a spelling incentive? Nope!!!

Hope you get a good outcome 🤞

School isn't saying punishment. That's me. I expect they are talking about staying in for "minutes" of playtime. She seems to know exactly how many minutes each time.

Children get free toast at break?

They buy it for 20p if they want to. My daughter wants to 😁. I have wondered if it means they can feed some of the children who need it.

I agree that they're not the best idea and it punishes children who are not at fault.

However, the amount of times the teacher has been called lazy on this thread is shocking. I've noticed it massively on teaching threads recently. It's not good.

Oh, they buy it. Thank you for replying.

Hope the whole class punishments stop
wholeclasd

I’ll confess I have used them once (secondary school). Had an exceptionally tricky class, not just me every teacher struggled with them.

We started a science practical. At least 8 of the kids were very excited and poorly behaved. I stopped the practical before it became unsafe. Gutted for the kids who lost out.
It’s like a motorway, everyone has to adhere to the same rules. If a few people disobey, the accident won’t affect just the rule breaker.
Behaviour was dramatically improved the next time we did a practical. I don’t like whole class punishments but controlling a group of 32 kids is not easy, I’ve no regrets doing it in that circumstance.

However, the amount of times the teacher has been called lazy on this thread is shocking

And sometimes by other teachers. It’s appalling. Poor behaviour is a massive issue in some schools.

@WhenSheWasBad

However, the amount of times the teacher has been called lazy on this thread is shocking

And sometimes by other teachers. It’s appalling. Poor behaviour is a massive issue in some schools.

The fact that her job is difficult doesn't mean that it's acceptable to outsource it to the nine-year-olds she's getting paid to supervise. The bottom line is that she'd rather they police each other's behaviour so that she doesn't have to do it herself. "Lazy" is one of the kinder terms I could use for that.

@PurpleOkapi

That's a lot of assumptions. She clearly needs support.

I really don't think she is lazy. She's lasted longer than many teachers and there's lots of cheap nqts etc. I really think she goes above and beyond in many ways. Unfortunately this is backfiring for ny daughter though.

Op, I'd send an email to the teacher explaining your concerns about your daughter.

[quote Sherrystrull]@PurpleOkapi

That's a lot of assumptions. She clearly needs support. [/quote]
What assumption am I making? That she's capable of identifying at least some of the disruptive students, and of punishing them individually if she chose to do so? If that's not true, "needs support" doesn't even begin to cover it. What sort of "support" would help a teacher who is completely incapable of figuring out which of her students is talking?

*What sort of "support" would help a teacher who is completely incapable of figuring out which of her students is talking^

I’ve seen very experienced teachers completely teach the end of their tether with a particular class. They’ve kept the whole class in over break. These teachers are extremely good.
It is just really hard to pinpoint where the noise is coming from when it is more than 15 kids misbehaving and not engaging in work.

She shouldn’t be doing the whole class punishments but I’ll bet behaviour is worse than just 3-4 kids talking. I’ll bet the teacher could cope if it was just 4 kids.

Hate, hate, hate whole class punishments and I don't know any teachers still doing them (except for one on my staff but she's a weapon anyway, so not surprising).

I'd put money on the behaviour being more than 4 kids - it's so hard to deal with a class like that - but this would not be the way to crack it imo.

No, the poster said it was for ‘learning opportunities’ not for behavioural management
The euphemism was clear though, and a poster has said the same thing.

A well designed seating plan that prioritises learning would not take the quiet/compliant/well behaved children who are likely to keep their head down next to the students who are known for displaying poor or challenging behaviour, because the adults in the room would acknowledge that it isn't the child's job to manage the behaviour of their peers. Dressing the strategy up as 'learning opportunities' doesn't change that.
The sorts of lazy seating plans that the poster refers to seem to generally involve quiet girls being paired with noisy boys and compliant children who are unlikely to make a fuss with the child who kicks tables and disrupts learning.

When staff do this it is lazy behaviour management because they're expecting a child to deal with behaviour that they're unwilling to deal with appropriately as a qualified adult.

And sometimes by other teachers. It’s appalling. Poor behaviour is a massive issue in some schools
It's not appalling for teachers to identify behaviours in colleagues that are generally done for the benefit of teachers rather than the children and that some techniques are not considered appropriate behaviour management.

@LolaSmiles

No, the poster said it was for ‘learning opportunities’ not for behavioural management The euphemism was clear though, and a poster has said the same thing.

A well designed seating plan that prioritises learning would not take the quiet/compliant/well behaved children who are likely to keep their head down next to the students who are known for displaying poor or challenging behaviour, because the adults in the room would acknowledge that it isn't the child's job to manage the behaviour of their peers. Dressing the strategy up as 'learning opportunities' doesn't change that.
The sorts of lazy seating plans that the poster refers to seem to generally involve quiet girls being paired with noisy boys and compliant children who are unlikely to make a fuss with the child who kicks tables and disrupts learning.

When staff do this it is lazy behaviour management because they're expecting a child to deal with behaviour that they're unwilling to deal with appropriately as a qualified adult.

And sometimes by other teachers. It’s appalling. Poor behaviour is a massive issue in some schools
It's not appalling for teachers to identify behaviours in colleagues that are generally done for the benefit of teachers rather than the children and that some techniques are not considered appropriate behaviour management.

It’s two different things though - pairing mixed ability kids to work together is peer-to-peer learning and very successful when done properly.

Sitting a quiet kid next to a noisy one is shit behavioural management. But that’s not the same as peer learning.

Whole class punishments are frowned upon these days. It's fine to keep individual children back at break/lunch but all children should not be punished for another's behaviour.

It’s two different things though - pairing mixed ability kids to work together is peer-to-peer learning and very successful when done properly.

Sitting a quiet kid next to a noisy one is shit behavioural management. But that’s not the same as peer learning
Yes, but the poster up thread wasn't outlining effective mixed ability seating for peer learning. That's our point.
They were outlining when a teacher places an 'angelic' child next to a student who disrupts, which as you say it shit behaviour management. It's lazy and is from the same sort of toolkit as whole class punishments.

@LolaSmiles

It’s two different things though - pairing mixed ability kids to work together is peer-to-peer learning and very successful when done properly.

Sitting a quiet kid next to a noisy one is shit behavioural management. But that’s not the same as peer learning
Yes, but the poster up thread wasn't outlining effective mixed ability seating for peer learning. That's our point.
They were outlining when a teacher places an 'angelic' child next to a student who disrupts, which as you say it shit behaviour management. It's lazy and is from the same sort of toolkit as whole class punishments.

Yes, but they called it ‘learning opportunities’ and it isn’t! That was my point!

LolaSmiles

They were outlining when a teacher places an 'angelic' child next to a student who disrupts, which as you say it shit behaviour management.

Except that this happens on most/all seating plans as you don't put the students that disrupt together.

Some Kids care about breaktime, that's why they lose it if they misbehave.

It is worth remembering that not all children enjoy breaktime especially if they are having peer difficulties. Ds was not disruptive but he would not do homework because the 'punishment' was to stay in at breaktime. His reasoning was why do homework when not doing it meant he could stay in the warm away from the children who made his life miserable.

Except that this happens on most/all seating plans as you don't put the students that disrupt together
It doesn't happen in most seating plans because any teacher with sense knows that there's an art to creating a decent seating plan that doesn't put all the disruptive students together, whilst also not pairing the disruptive students with the quiet and compliant ones in the hope that the quiet ones won't make a fuss.

There's a lot of nice well-behaved students in most classes and the teachers who like to make pupil behaviour the problem of other pupils rarely seem to sit the disruptive students with nice, middle ground students. There's a reason they choose the quiet, compliant ones.

Yes, but they called it ‘learning opportunities’ and it isn’t! That was my point!
But they were using it as a euphemism as in that's what some staff will call it. Wasn't it the same poster who has come back and clarified they were using it in that way as well?

@LolaSmiles

Except that this happens on most/all seating plans as you don't put the students that disrupt together It doesn't happen in most seating plans because any teacher with sense knows that there's an art to creating a decent seating plan that doesn't put all the disruptive students together, whilst also not pairing the disruptive students with the quiet and compliant ones in the hope that the quiet ones won't make a fuss.

There's a lot of nice well-behaved students in most classes and the teachers who like to make pupil behaviour the problem of other pupils rarely seem to sit the disruptive students with nice, middle ground students. There's a reason they choose the quiet, compliant ones.

Yes, but they called it ‘learning opportunities’ and it isn’t! That was my point!
But they were using it as a euphemism as in that's what some staff will call it. Wasn't it the same poster who has come back and clarified they were using it in that way as well?

That poster said they were a teacher, if they can’t tell the difference between behaviour management and peer learning then I’d say they’ve got bigger problems.