Whole class punishments?

[WholeClassKeptIn]

Where do we all stand on whole class punishments? I thought they weren't done anymore but I don't think they're outright banned are they?

My daughter is in yr 5 and is quite rule driven. She has an amazing teacher and I'm happy with school in general and bit worried about becoming "that parent."

But... the teacher I think (obviously hearing this from a child!) Is keeping the children in at break and lunch if the class is noisy. The problem is she knows she is not talking (or her friend next to her) and the sense of injustice is huge. They hate being kept in when they haven't broken any rules.

I know its not long (under 10mins I think) but to a child its ages. she's feeling anxious when other children start talking that she will miss part of her break. When she comes home if it's a "kept in" day it's all she talks about. Its about once a week so far.

This week they were told they were missing "8 minutes" of break the next day (15mins). She didn't want to go to school the next day . I know this is an overreaction but she was worried about going in to be told off for something she's not doing. As it happened she then went to queue for toast after missing the first half, but she waited the reat of break and didn't get toast or to play. She came home quite upset.

I know to adults this seems a small thing and I know it must be incredibly hard for the teacher. But its getting to her as she can't do anything to stop it however quiet she is!

Any thoughts?

We have a newly qualified teacher who started doing this, and the experienced teachers apparently had a quiet word with her to say no no no that is not acceptable or effective discipline.

What this kind of teacher doesn’t get is that this doesn’t change the noisy children’s behaviour, it just makes the quiet children anxious and more importantly they lose all respect for the teacher and school. At which point they too begin to break rules.

Imagine if the police regularly arrested you for crimes committed by other people on your road. How much respect would you have for the law?!

Anyway I would write to the school raising it formally and pointing out that they are creating a school anxiety / school refusal situation in well-behaved children who have already had a huge amount of stress re covid and they lack of playtime on a regular basis has been shown to make class behaviour worse and maybe just maybe they could modernise their methods.

I have emailed the teacher saying the effect it has on my child and thing if whole class punishments are now a thing. I will see what she says Monday but suppose Idneed to escalate it if so?

I think they are doing such a tough job and actually think she's a great teacher apart from this!

Its only a few minutes so they could say its not lack of playtime as such...

From a behavioural psychology stand point whole class punishments are disastrous in the long run. But for a teacher at the end of their tether, it can feel highly satisfying in the short term. It’s the equivalent of yelling at or smacking your kids - it gives you a release and in the moment they stop whatever they were at, but in the long run it creates more problems.

The opposite - where the whole class gains a reward because of one child’s good behaviour is extremely effective and promotes peer support and positive group dynamics.

I’m not sure it’s about lazy teaching, but more likely that teachers don’t get adequate training on behavioural modelling of group dynamics.

They get cake if everyone gets all their spellings right.... which I did point out to my excited child was pretty unlikely to happen.

@Jenster03

I think the reason teachers do this is because there's that many talking they can't tell who it is exactly.

I think this - and having them in masks certainly doesn't help with this!

@Jenster03

Regarding kids losing break time if they get punished, I'd be interested to know what a more appropriate punishment would be. Kids care about breaktime, that's why they lose it if they misbehave. You can't win can you?

If peer-to-peer learning isn’t working then you’re not doing it right.

I think we've had this conversation before. Obviously putting a smart and well-behaved kid next to a struggling and disruptive kid and hoping things magically sort themselves out isn't "doing it right." But depending on the personalities and circumstances involved, it's perfectly possible to do peer learning 'by the book' and still have it be counterproductive for all involved. No one teaching strategy will be effective for every single child, and this one is less reliable than most because of its reliance on another child's behaviour.

Oops. Quoted the wrong person. Sorry @Jenster03!

No, the poster said it was for ‘learning opportunities’ not for behavioural management.
Yes, I should have put it in inverted commas. That’s the cover given for it when it’s actually just using the nice kids as babysitters. It’s out of order and bone idle teaching.

@SockFluffInTheBath

No, the poster said it was for ‘learning opportunities’ not for behavioural management. Yes, I should have put it in inverted commas. That’s the cover given for it when it’s actually just using the nice kids as babysitters. It’s out of order and bone idle teaching.

No, it isn’t. That’s a totally different thing.

I personally don't like it, but what can I say when I'm not the one looking after 30 children?
Also the fact is, teacher may not know who to punish if she/he need to resort in whole class punishment. And tbh, 8/10 minutes isn't a big deal. I would rather class behave s a whole, rather than teacher has no way to punish and the disruption keep going on for whole year.
It's a new school year, children get fed up of being punished for something they didn't do, and start to behave. If they don't, and if some keep dragging them down with their bad behaviour, those who don't start to say/act on it so they won't be in same situation over and over?

8/10mins isnt a big deal to us. But out of a 15min break is a huge deal to a child. Especially feeling "naughty/punished" when they haven't done anything wrong.

I don't think it works anyway. What do you want to happen- the rest of the class turn on those who struggle to behave?!

Its half a term in and still happening.

This happened when my son was in year 4, I totally disagree with the whole notion. When it kept occurring I did go in and spoke with the teacher and told her I totally disagreed with her and to be fair she did listen and it never happened again! This never happens in life as an adult so not sure why it’s acceptable for a child. Go in and complain.

I don’t think it matters if it’s 1 minute the whole principle is unjust and what is it teaching the kids who aren’t fucking about? They may just think what’s the point in behaving if I’ll get punished regardless!

Noticing and keeping track of who's doing what is a large part of a teacher's job. Nine-year-olds aren't known for their subtlety, nor for their masterful planning and deception skills. If the problem goes on for days or weeks and she still truly can't figure out where all the ruckus is coming from, that's a competence issue on her end.

If they don't, and if some keep dragging them down with their bad behaviour, those who don't start to say/act on it so they won't be in same situation over and over?
That's the entire problem, though. It should never be a nine-year-old's responsibility to make sure another nine-year-old behaves. That's even more true when there's an adult in the room who's literally being paid to do exactly that. And if for some insane reason someone thinks giving a nine-year-old that responsibility over a classmate is a good idea, just telling them to find a way to make Billy behave, but giving them zero guidance about how best to accomplish that objective or about what methods are and aren't acceptable, is just setting both of them up for failure and resentment.

My daughters school do this thing where if everyone isnt lining up nicely ready for lunch they won’t let them in until they are, so if one kid is being naughty the rest have to wait.... it got to a point where for 3 days in a row dd didn’t finish her lunch, luckily someone else complained before me.... they still do it but it’s not as extreme now...as far as I’m aware anyway..

I still get annoyed when I think of the one detention I got at secondary school, it was a class one because a few of my classmates were mucking about.

My dd had this in Year 5. I was furious about it. Why punish those that didn’t do wrong? It was shit teaching at it’s finest.
The teacher finally left 🎉 hurrah! No don’t discipline. It’s a loss of control.
I work in a strict private school and find this punishment total shite and counter productive.
So, the teacher that has dolled out the punishment has turned their students against them

@thelegohooverer

From a behavioural psychology stand point whole class punishments are disastrous in the long run. But for a teacher at the end of their tether, it can feel highly satisfying in the short term. It’s the equivalent of yelling at or smacking your kids - it gives you a release and in the moment they stop whatever they were at, but in the long run it creates more problems.

The opposite - where the whole class gains a reward because of one child’s good behaviour is extremely effective and promotes peer support and positive group dynamics.

I’m not sure it’s about lazy teaching, but more likely that teachers don’t get adequate training on behavioural modelling of group dynamics.

I'm sceptical that the opposite is really any better. I don't doubt that it results in more children getting all their spelling words right when the reward for that happening is the entire class getting cake. So by that metric, I suppose it's effective. But group rewards seem no less likely than group punishments to lead to students resenting other students. If they want cake, they're going to resent not getting it because little Billy doesn't know how to spell "spaghetti." And making everyone's cake-eating contingent on little Billy's spelling skills is no less unfair to Billy (or to everyone else) than making everyone's break contingent on Billy's remembering not to talk out of turn.

She's certainly losing my daughter's love 😔

just telling them to find a way to make Billy behave

But the fact is, teacher may not be able to figure out that Billy is to blame. If he is the only one misbehaving, it must be easy for teacher to punish Billy. But if he was prompting children around him to misbehave with him, how can the teacher be able to tell Billy is the one to blame?
If the children figured it out misbehaving causes punishment, they will start to behave no matter how hard Billy prompt them to misbehave with him. In the end, he will be exposed. No one has to take responsibility for others but their own behaviour.

But if he was prompting children around him to misbehave with him, how can the teacher be able to tell Billy is the one to blame?

Maybe she can't. Though, like I said before, nine-year-olds aren't known for being masters of subtlety and strategy. And if the teacher can't figure it out, I don't know why anyone would expect a bunch of nine-year-olds to be able to. But even if she can't, it doesn't matter. Punish the students who are misbehaving, and like you said, they'll eventually catch on that they should stop listening to Billy. That's true whether Billy himself ever gets punished or not. Punishing everyone else doesn't seem like it would add anything here.

If it is causing anxiety with your DD I'd speak to the school based on the advice from Teachers on the thread.
Check if this is the procedure throughout the school.

I don't agree with them , punish the ones that deserve it