If a police officer arrested you like Wayne Couzens?

[faithfulbird20]

Unfortunately it's taken losing Sarah to such a horrific crime to ask such a question. But what are we supposed to do. Someone arrests you off duty and you don't know whether u can trust them due to this case. What would you do? Ring 999 and say I'm being arrested by so and so but I don't know if he's on duty or if he's dodgy please can you log it somewhere. I just want to know if I'm definitely being taken to the police station I feel unsafe. There should be some sort of law. But what could you do? You've got no chance. No chance of safety. It's scary.

I think I would have gone too. Wasn't this at the height of covid where it was reported that people were breaching covid regulations and being arrested for things that they wouldn't have been previously. Im sure he used the correct language for arresting her and maybe she thought she would sort it all out at the police station.

@mariell he was a police officer, with a card that said he was a police officer.

I've challenged cab drivers before and got back out of taxis where the driver ID displayed clearly doesn't belong to the man behind the wheel. I've usually been made to feel uncomfortable for doing so, but in that circumstance I've had a tiny amount of "power" as a customer.

I think I would feel hugely uncomfortable questioning or peacefully resisting a police officer. They know they have the power and the backup.

Agree with others and @LadyJaye i also read that Sarah complied, and think most of us would. I know I would. I was just making the point that even if she had tried to resist he could have overcome her and it's likely no one would have stepped into help even if they saw it. Male violence is the issue, but sadly it is woman who are suffering and looking for help for their safety.

What I am struggling with is to know really what we do. Suggestions of ringing 999 or family or getting onto Instagram or whatever are great and if it's a genuine police officer then in theory they don't mind you checking their collar number but would we do it, or would the social conditioning override our concerns. And if say you got arrested for drunk and disorderly in the town on a Saturday night would the police really let you ring someone to check an officer was legit (even if you had the presence of mind to do it)?

@BogRollBOGOF you've said what I was trying to say but far better!!

I heard part of an interview with what I think was a senior police officer on R4 World at One who seemed to recognise the issue but arguably prioritised the police's need to 'do their job', to reassure the public and that in his view this case's exceptionality shouldn't interrupt that. He seemed to set store by an officer having a Warrant Card as a bdge of legitimacy but the interviewer pointed out that an official Warrant Card was used in this case. There was no discussion that presumably this could be easily faked anyway. It appears that (a possibly fake) Warrant Card looks like a licence to abduct, rape and murder for a lone man or possibly for a pair (I don't think a lone woman should necessarily feel safer if it were a couple of apparently plain clothes officers given the ability for abusers to communicate and work together, such as in the sharing of and coordinating CSA.

I think the police need to put aside their institutional convenience of having lone plain clothes officers being able to handcuff lone women at night and come up with some proposals and objectively assess their practicality, perhaps that a uniformed car with a couple of officers should be called to take a woman into custody.

It remains to be seen how seriously the police take the allegations that this murderer's colleagues suppressed adverse consequences to his behaviour around indecent exposure and that his nickname in his previous force is alleged to be 'The Rapist' with a reputation for hard core pornography and drugs misuse but which appeared to lead to no action to protect women and vulnerable people.

Will the murderer keep his pension and benefits?

I feel so desperately sorry for Sarah's family today. I hope there's a law change in England and wales immediately making it unlawful for a single police officer to arrest a lone person/female. I've been arrested taken into an interview room and cautioned by a lone transport policeman when I was a teen for travelling on a kids train ticket ( couldn't afford the full adult fare) It was 9pm at night on a Sunday so very quiet- I just keep thinking how it could happen to any of us.

It shouldn't just be on women to work out how to minimise their risk.

Perhaps a FoI to every Police Force asking for information about what work they have in train to assess their procedures to protect lone women from personal crime by plain clothes and by uniformed Police Officers?

Before this case, I would have done exactly as Sarah did. I might have felt uneasy, but the risk of something like this happening would have seemed incredibly low compared to the risk of being charged with resisting a police officer or a similar offence. So I wouldn't have done anything different to what Sarah did.

Now, I would ask for proof that the local station was aware that they were arresting me. I would request a marked police car and a second police officer. I would make it clear all the time I was doing this that I was not resisting arrest but I wanted to be sure of their right to arrest me and that I would be safe. I would ask to be allowed to phone/message my family to let them know where I was being taken and the name of the arresting police officer. If all that failed, I would call over any passers-by to be witnesses to what was going on, to take the name of the police officer and to ask them to call a family member on my behalf. Ultimately, though, if the police aren't willing to let you do this and get violent with you, there's a limit to what you can realistically do.

The answer to how to prevent what happened to Sarah is for men to stop raping and murdering women, full stop. Women are murdered on the street, in their homes, at their workplace. The issue is male violence.

I don't find it helpful to think what we would have done I that circumstance, as that was unique, the thing that isn't unique is systemic male violence. How do we address that, how do we protest that?

@HagridHair

Sky news just had the ex head of the met on and she said that no police officer should be asking you to get into an unmarked police car. So refuse and ask them to call a marked colleague

I’d be wary of even getting in a marked police car with a lone male officer now. I mean, he was using his badge and handcuffs snd was off duty, what’s to say a marked car can’t be used?

@Goldbar

Before this case, I would have done exactly as Sarah did. I might have felt uneasy, but the risk of something like this happening would have seemed incredibly low compared to the risk of being charged with resisting a police officer or a similar offence. So I wouldn't have done anything different to what Sarah did.

Now, I would ask for proof that the local station was aware that they were arresting me. I would request a marked police car and a second police officer. I would make it clear all the time I was doing this that I was not resisting arrest but I wanted to be sure of their right to arrest me and that I would be safe. I would ask to be allowed to phone/message my family to let them know where I was being taken and the name of the arresting police officer. If all that failed, I would call over any passers-by to be witnesses to what was going on, to take the name of the police officer and to ask them to call a family member on my behalf. Ultimately, though, if the police aren't willing to let you do this and get violent with you, there's a limit to what you can realistically do.

I would guess that you are not a Poc, Goldbar. I could not imagine for one minute the police entertaining such a request from a Poc.

What about a scenario where a genuine police officer chases down and apprehends a person suspected of mugging someone, but because they are a lone officer they can't arrest the suspect.

The suspect then escapes whilst the officer is waiting for a second officer and in the aftermath goes on to stab/injure/kill several people.

I understand that is whataboutery but in some instances would the public expect a lone officer to be able to make an arrest? Occasionally I also guess that being able to handcuff someone would make the situtation safer either in terms of preventing harm to either the officer or the suspect.

However of course in this case there was no reason for arrest, it would just be difficult if rules put in to keep people safe were then used by unscrupulous people to create other unsafe scenarios.

The thing is, you could try to do those things (ask for proof that the local station are aware etc etc) but a man who intends to cause you harm won't go along with it, they will just physically force you in. Imagine seeing someone resisting arrest. You just let the police get on with it, don't you. You do not help the arrestee try to escape.

If an officer is off duty and arrests someone he shouldn't be putting them anywhere near his car. He should be phoning 999 for assistance from on duty officers in a marked car.

As pp said in Scotland for someone to be arrested there has to be 2 officers present. Its also policy that unless it's a very rural area officers aren't allowed out on patrol on their own

As pp said in Scotland for someone to be arrested there has to be 2 officers present.

PP hadn't provided any kind of link though. Can you? I like to know my rights and I had no idea this was the case.

I do think the hoo haa on MN over the last couple of days is interesting to watch

WTAF?! How lovely to read that the distress of women has provided good entertainment value for you

On that cctv though it does look like she starts off talking to him quite confidently and looking as though she is making sure it's legit. So I don't doubt she would've had doubts and questioned them but we don't know what he said to her. I think we like to think we wouldn't comply but I reckon I would've done what she did

@JesusInTheCabbageVan

It was reported from the evidence of the dash cam that she was meek and co operative after he showed her his warrant card.

It was reported that she cooperated. 'Meek' is an insulting and victim blaming word that you added yourself, I think?

Thank you I am really annoyed at the use of the word ‘meek’to describe Sarah. It’s insulting and has negative connotations. The word to use is cooperative

@supercritter

This

Advice posters like that are completely ineffectual. How can most women resist being handcuffed by a powerful, trained officer? And it doesn't matter what you ask for if they ignore your requests. You can hardly call home, check with a local station or call 999 if they have cuffed you and if they are not legitimate they are hardly going to stand placidly by while you do. That poster shows no insight whatsoever into the power imbalance in a situation like the one Sarah Everard found herself in. It may as well say: ladies, dress in sacks, stay sober at all times and never leave the house unaccompanied.

Sorry - the image didn't copy.

I’m hoping that they bring in the right for a person to refuse arrest by a sole officer where they fear for their safety.
The right to request that a second officer is dispatched.
Or the right to phone 999 to verify the situation

I was talking about this with a friend - even if she had resisted him bystanders would have assumed it was a difficult woman refusing arrest and he would have been able to use more force as that’s what people expect.

It’s really sad and I can’t even imagine how she felt knowing she was in cuffs unable to escape.

I just feel totally checkmated by this situation and what it means for women in future facing a purported "arrest". I don't think there was anything Sarah could have done to escape her situation once her assailant clocked her. She could have been cooperative or been bolshy and it wouldn't have made a difference either way. He would have everything planned out down to his patter. He totally exploited his situation of being in a position of trust in the most heinous way possible.

One possible solution would be for police officers to have QR codes you could scan to verify. But then WC's would have come up as valid. Maybe some kind of check in system between phones of the officer and arrestee, that gets sent to a third party. But once you get in the car, you are at their mercy anyway. Maybe your phone has a dead battery or you don't have a smartphone. Who's going to have a specific app for this in case of the minuscule chance of abduction by police officer?

Ultimately the only way to solve this is for institutions in a position of trust like the police to have an absolute zero tolerance policy for sexual and domestic violence, harassment, porn use etc. How on earth was someone whose nickname was "the rapist" allowed to serve as an officer? His colleagues knew, even if they couldn't fathom the exact depths of his evil.

@SheWoreYellow

I don’t understand why you’d phone 999 and ask them to log it, OP.

I’d phone 999 or 101 and ask them to check it’s legitimate.

But even he wasn’t a fake police Man, he could have been on duty, or could claim he’s off duty but someone has committed a crime and he’s arresting them.

999 will just clarify he’s a police man.

PP hadn't provided any kind of link though. Can you? I like to know my rights and I had no idea this was the case

Unfortunately no I can't Its certainly been policy for as long as I can remember. I believe its because in Scots Law corroboration is required.