If a police officer arrested you like Wayne Couzens?

[faithfulbird20]

Unfortunately it's taken losing Sarah to such a horrific crime to ask such a question. But what are we supposed to do. Someone arrests you off duty and you don't know whether u can trust them due to this case. What would you do? Ring 999 and say I'm being arrested by so and so but I don't know if he's on duty or if he's dodgy please can you log it somewhere. I just want to know if I'm definitely being taken to the police station I feel unsafe. There should be some sort of law. But what could you do? You've got no chance. No chance of safety. It's scary.

I think this is a fundamentally diffcult question.

Do we really want to prevent genuine police officers being able to put hands on genuine offenders and prevent them escaping the scene of a crime. They need to have the power to drag people kicking and screaming into a van. They need to be able to seize phones and prevent them from being used to destroy evidence.

I completely understand how people feel about this situation and other wrongful arrests, but I am not sure if making it easier for genuine offenders to escape being detained the police makes us safer.

It’s very easy to say what you would do but in the actual situation he’s much harder to refuse.
I used to waitress so would drive home at 1-2am in the morning. I got pulled over by a policeman as (it turned out had put my licence plate of my Mondeo into his system wrong so thought I had false plates) I was asked to sit in the back of the police car while he did a 2nd check (which is when he realised his mistake). Now he was a normal police man and was in a marked car but it was still scary and I didn’t really feel I could refuse to get into the back of the squad car. It was a rural country road and no-one else around.
I think now almost 10 years later I would be more confident in saying I wasn’t happy to do that and insist on him calling back up before I got out of my car

I know what I'd do, speaking as someone who has unfortunately been detained before... I'd do exactly what they told me to do and hope it helped my chances of getting away from the situation as quickly as possible back to my freedom, only speak when it's necessary! I'd never put myself at risk of needing to spend more time with them. It's a deeply shameful experience and I certainly wouldn't scream and shout to make sure everyone and their dog can then watch me get arrested I cannot describe how awful it is and how powerless you are.

@MrsTophamHat

I think this is a fundamentally diffcult question.

Do we really want to prevent genuine police officers being able to put hands on genuine offenders and prevent them escaping the scene of a crime. They need to have the power to drag people kicking and screaming into a van. They need to be able to seize phones and prevent them from being used to destroy evidence.

I completely understand how people feel about this situation and other wrongful arrests, but I am not sure if making it easier for genuine offenders to escape being detained the police makes us safer.

I think now some white people are feeling how many in the BAME communities have felt for years. The police, on a fundamental level, are not your friend. They are more likely to bundle you into the back of a van and give you a kicking, or frame you for something you didn't do, than actually do something that helps keep you safe.

But if their net effect is not to keep anyone without white skin safe, and is now not to make women feel safe, exactly what the fuck are they for? Who are they protecting? It's a minority of middle class white men, if anyone at all.

Against this background I really question whether the police's 'power to drag people kicking and screaming into a van' is actually a help or hindrance to society.

It's very difficult for some people to recognise the police as a malign presence, because they are authority figures and so many of us have been taught to trust them from day one. But it is, on balance, what they are now. It's this realisation that has driven the 'defund the police' aspect of the BLM movement.

While this is a terribly tragic case and should never have happened, I really don’t get the apparent huge distrust of the police now.

I see no reason not to trust them as a whole because of a bad apple. Unfortunately you get murderers in every walk of life.

I am not saying that a review would not be welcome and there are clear problems in the police which need to be seriously addressed, however some of the suggestions made here seem wholly unworkable.

Two (white) men stabbed a third to death here and were on the run for a week earlier this month. Do we really want a situation where officers locate such offenders and have to simply let them escape because they are unable to physically seize them? Who exactly will bring such people in to face justice because they aren't going to come quietly, are they?

@seaandsandcastles

While this is a terribly tragic case and should never have happened, I really don’t get the apparent huge distrust of the police now.

I see no reason not to trust them as a whole because of a bad apple. Unfortunately you get murderers in every walk of life.

Except he was not one bad apple. He was aided and abetted by his colleagues.

He was caught wanking in a mcdonalds drive thru weeks before he murdered Sarah Everard. The police did nothing, because he was one of theirs, and kept him on duty, with his equipment and warrant card that he used to help with the murder.

Colleagues at his station had nicknamed him 'the Rapist' because of his deviant behaviour. But no-one reported this; they thought it was a laugh.

The problem is not one of 'bad apples'. The evidence is that it is institutional and universal. It's as plain as the nose on your face.

If they were off duty, I would ask to see ID and request they put their phone on loudspeaker so I can hear the conversation to the police station when they call it in.

Saying that, I have been detained by a lone male cop before, and was taken away with just me and him in the car. He was very much on duty, car was marked and I heard everything he was saying on the radio.
I have also been in unmarked cars, but the cops were on duty.

Like a PP said, the whole experience can be humiliating and you go along with whatever they say to get the experience done and out the way.

@thedancingbear None of that changes my opinion.

Even if this was "one bad apple" - which I doubt - how on earth can we trust any police officer? The bad apples don't go round with a big label saying "bad apple". They look like all the others - like your dad, your partner, your son.

[quote seaandsandcastles]@thedancingbear None of that changes my opinion.[/quote]
Then you are incapable of critical thought.

This is all bonkers. If you're being arrested on suspicion of an offence then your bargaining power is approximately zero. You are no longer a free citizen, that's the point of arrest. You can't start making demands, or refusing to submit to the authority of the police unless they satisfy certain conditions. You do what you're told, and if you don't do what you're told they are legally empowered to use force to make you. There's no other sensible basis upon which the apprehension of criminals would work.

I'm going to be honest- whilst police harassment (mainly BAME) is an absolute issue, one policeman, killing one woman, is not systemic of this being an issue with the police. This one, horrific incident, will not change how I would interact with a line male policeman in the future.

This was a terrible crime and made worse by the fact that the murderer was a police officer. However i think the idea that this makes all police officers culpable is a dangerous direction to take.
think of it this way, teachers, priests,doctors ,firemen have all been prosecuted for sexual crimes and murder. Do you keep your kids out of school? not take them to the doctors etc?
i am in no way defending this piece of subhuman scum but at the same time to use it as a way of saying all police are the same is a dangerous road to take.
As to the issue of what to do if arrested by a single male saying they are a police officer and presenting a warrant card i honestly dont think sarah could have done anything different, there are thousands of arrests made every day and some of them are by plain clothes officers. whilst in scotland officers patrol in pairs due to scottish law requiring corroboration in england this is not the case.

@seaandsandcastles

While this is a terribly tragic case and should never have happened, I really don’t get the apparent huge distrust of the police now.

I see no reason not to trust them as a whole because of a bad apple. Unfortunately you get murderers in every walk of life.

It's very telling who is "now" distrustful of the police. I grew up knowing the police weren't my friend, I suppose I had a head start what with having a Black father. But it isn't one or two bad apples - the entire system is rotten from the inside out. The very core of policing is rotten. The issue now is that the people who aren't supposed to experience police brutality in all its vulgarity have been exposed to it and there's no going back from that.

I happen to think smart phones are actually one the greatest inventions of our time for no other reason that we can now literally film the police. Not because it's a 'computer in your pocket' and we can all capture lovely memories with our families - nope.

I donate to a group who teaches young black men how to interact with the police using knowledge of the law when they're stopped and searched for the crime of being black in public. If these young men tried to walk away from the police I doubt they'd make it out of a police van or cell in one piece.

My heart and my head ache thinking about Sarah and how she had absolutely no chance. If she had resisted, he would've still done what he did.
I'm mid 40s and I wouldn't have done anything different to Sarah. I'd have deferred to authority and in the moment, surrounded by covid rules and regs, and confusion and 'authority', I would've thought I'd done something wrong. By the time he handcuffed her, she probably knew things weren't right but what the hell could she do at that point?
I feel sick about what Sarah endured, and am so, so sad for her family.

The irony here is that Sarah was a short walk from a police station. I’ve always been told that if apprehended for something you’re not sure you did, ask to walk/drive to the nearest police station. In fact INSIST!!!

Thedancingbear

As a police officer of 20 years plus - I have never ".....bundled you into the back of a van and give you a kicking, or frame you for something you didn't do..."

Assuming that we are all the same as Couzens is deeply offensive when i have spent my whole career on emergency response teams helping people directly. Yes we sometimes have to restrain people - but that's the nature of the job and the nature of the people we are dealing with.

To defund the police further will be simply putting the general public at risk - we curerentl can't even afford evidence bags, batteries etc

It doesn't matter what 'laws' they bring in. This wasn't a legitimate arrest. If she'd asked to call and check or tried to resist he would have overpowered her and hand cuffed her anyway.

@Sylvvie

Any officer will be happy for you to call 101 or 999 to get their collar number confirmed. Officers in Scotland can ONLY arrest people in pairs.

I can vouch for this as I had to report crime a few years ago and they came to the house as a pair to speak to me.

It's a great way to operate. Means they are protecting themselves too.

I absolutely hate that there are a few people here trying to find a ‘fault’ of Sarah’s to rationalise why it happened to her. She was ‘meek’ or should have questioned it more... I can hand on heart say that I would have done exactly the same thing she did that night and I suspect the majority of us would have. That’s what’s so terrifying about it. She never had a chance.

It’s playing on my mind the amount of fear she must have felt as she started to realise something wasn’t right. Not the same but just before Covid happened I got an Uber from my sisters house to the train station in an unfamiliar city. The minute I got in the driver locked the passenger doors and I had an uneasy feeling. It wasn’t a long journey and the train station entrance was signposted many times on the way yet the driver went the opposite way every time while telling me ‘not to worry, I will get you to the station’ over and over. He went straight past the station and kept driving. Eventually he decided to turn around and take me there with many excuses to try and explain the detour.

It only lasted around twenty five minutes but it was one of the most nerve wracking experiences of my life. My feet didn’t touch the ground when getting out of the car.
It breaks my heart that Sarah endured 80 fucking miles like that. There really are no words.

@Felix125

Thedancingbear

As a police officer of 20 years plus - I have never ".....bundled you into the back of a van and give you a kicking, or frame you for something you didn't do..."

Assuming that we are all the same as Couzens is deeply offensive when i have spent my whole career on emergency response teams helping people directly. Yes we sometimes have to restrain people - but that's the nature of the job and the nature of the people we are dealing with.

To defund the police further will be simply putting the general public at risk - we curerentl can't even afford evidence bags, batteries etc

I'm pleased to learn that you've never 'bundled anyone in the back of a van for a kicking', but the reality is unfortunately that your colleagues do. When I was younger (we're talking in the mid 90's here), two of your number decided that a couple of friends of mine (both mixed-race, as it goes) were responsible for a spate of burglaries; handcuffed them to railings; informed one of the victims where they were chained up; and wandered off for 10 minutes. Seeing them afterwards was my first material contact with the police.

What do you say to the officers who decided not to investigate Couzens for getting his cock out at the staff at a drive thru? To the ones who joked that he was 'the Rapist' but raised no concerns about him? Are you like them or are you different? And how are we to tell? Have you got anything to say about any of that, or are you just butthurt that many people - BAME people, women - are now terrified of you?

I think the advice and post by @supercritter is excellent. I honestly would never have thought of it, but it makes so much sense. Crazy to think that women have to think about things like that.

Any officer will be happy for you to call 101 or 999 to get their collar number confirmed. Officers in Scotland can ONLY arrest people in pairs.

I can vouch for this as I had to report crime a few years ago and they came to the house as a pair to speak to me.

It's a great way to operate. Means they are protecting themselves too.

This thread is increasingly detached from reality! There is something of a difference from being voluntarily interviewed as a possible witness, and being arrested on suspicion of commiting an offence serious enough to justify arrest.