If a police officer arrested you like Wayne Couzens?

[faithfulbird20]

Unfortunately it's taken losing Sarah to such a horrific crime to ask such a question. But what are we supposed to do. Someone arrests you off duty and you don't know whether u can trust them due to this case. What would you do? Ring 999 and say I'm being arrested by so and so but I don't know if he's on duty or if he's dodgy please can you log it somewhere. I just want to know if I'm definitely being taken to the police station I feel unsafe. There should be some sort of law. But what could you do? You've got no chance. No chance of safety. It's scary.

The only thing I can think of is to ask to speak to their control room staff to verify. The officer won't be able to hand you their radio, but they could hold it to you and you speak into it. Any police officer should now be trying to put people at their ease. They will know the absolute furore that surrounds the force. The only other thing I can think of is, if you are really in a situation you are not sure of, begin to speak very loudly and draw attention to yourself. It's very difficult. I would have done exactly what Sarah did. I honestly cannot say different.

Sex crimes and the met.

Papers recently something like 700+ reports from public about sexual misconduct or assault made by members of public in 2 years.

(They don't do much with the complaints - one thing they could and should fix).

Loads about officers coercing etc vulnerable victims they come into contact with through work. Despicable.

And when it comes to their job.. The met and sex offences. They are a disaster. Have been for years. That links into a cultural view of those offences, and the victims. So while not actually offending themselves. Well here's some of the things.

Sapphire unit was disbanded due to mishandling/ tampering with evidence. Falsifying files. That sort of thing.

They were of course operating when warboys was active. Women spoke about being told by sapphire that a black cab driver wouldn't do that. Essentially turned away. They had all the info. I think can ID and / or car plate. Nothing done. Until much later meaning loads of women attacked than should have been if he did his job.

Reid another serial rapist. Again they could have got him but nah. I think they may have investigated one of the women who reported him though. Instead. Can't remember.

Watsapp groups. Couzens. Sounds appalling content. With other officers.

Bibi and Nicola. Met cops - two together. BOTH thought yep. Selfies and send to colleagues.

In short.

Saying oh 26 convicted since whenever to try to make the point that you know. Seems to be no problem. No indication that there's any kind of problem with met and the whole area of women and girls and sex related crimes.

It's just miles off the whole picture and the fact is that prosecution is rare. Even when evidence of sex crime it seems to go.

Bother to look into it? Well. Sometimes.
Takes a few years.
Reprimand/ training.
Occasionally sack.

Court? Rarely.

Couple of examples in papers recently.

100k people on sex offenders registrar.

67 million ppl in UK

100k in 67 million is 1 in 670

Suppose there have been 300 sex offences in MET workforce in last 40 years , but workforce must be, I dunno, 300k different individuals over that period?

300/300k is 1 in 1000

Anyway, I agree it's guesswork. You can't say the occurrence of convicted sex offenders is higher among MET Officers than general population without some real numbers.

One of the major problems as I’ve been thinking about it is that often the arrest circumstances are not great. Often late at night with the person stopped whether for good reason or not having been drinking etc. A lawful arrest can then turn sinister in an unpremeditated manner. If an officer were a potential offender pre meditating then the vulnérabilités if any woman stopped would increase with the likelihood of a lone woman being targeted and approached in darkness and with no witnesses etc. Any stopped may not have their wits about them to think calmly and seek assurance or demand to await a colleague or phone a control room.
So it’s feeling as though there is another level of policing women’s behaviour in public. Not being alone (often the advice is to be with a man - itself problematic given known male violence on women), not being out late or in darkness and being wholly sober and alert. Things women live with daily and are sick and tired of.

@lljkk

100k people on sex offenders registrar.

67 million ppl in UK

100k in 67 million is 1 in 670

Suppose there have been 300 sex offences in MET workforce in last 40 years , but workforce must be, I dunno, 300k different individuals over that period?

300/300k is 1 in 1000

Anyway, I agree it's guesswork. You can't say the occurrence of convicted sex offenders is higher among MET Officers than general population without some real numbers.

However, it's pretty well-established that they don't investigate each other for any kind of crime until a gun is held to their head.

So, if the rate of convictions is roughly in line with the general population, which I think is what you're suggesting, you can be damned sure that the rate of offending is a lot higher.

Couzens overtly turned up at work events with prostitutes, and this generated no more than a raised eyebrow. Can you think of any other professional working culture where this would be tolerated in the 21st century? And these people are charged with protecting vulnerable women and girls. It's unbelievable.

@Sylvvie

Any officer will be happy for you to call 101 or 999 to get their collar number confirmed. Officers in Scotland can ONLY arrest people in pairs.

I called 101 after a car accident once and was shocked not to be able to get through after several minutes.

@alwayscrashinginthesamecar1

'I'm just asking you and others politely to not swear at me in posts. I'm not using abusive language back at you and I don't like swearing. No - I'm not going to arrest your, summons you or report you - I'm just asking politely. Thank you'

No. We are allowed to swear here, and I'm pissed off that you are spouting NACALT when a lot of us here are telling you our lived experience is that a hell of a lot of coppers are not on our side. I lived in London for ten years and never met a helpful MET officer. While I am sure some of them must exist, any I met were dreadful, and I am a totally law abiding citizen. The system is rotten to the core, and if you refuse to acknowledge that then you are part of the problem, and can quite frankly piss off.

So, you have never met me, don't know the incidents I have worked on, the victims I have helped & supported, the commendations I have received, the injuries I have suffered, the staff that I have helped, the convictions I have secured, the property I have returned, the survivors that have thanked me, the grieving relatives I have supported...

Yet you just assume that I am as bad as Couzens

So, what realistically do you want me to do - resign?

thedancingbear

This.

Typical police tactics. Deny, deny, deny. Misogyny doesn't happen. Couzens' character witnesses at his trial, the officers who buried his prior sexual offences, they didn't exist. The 'I never saw him do it guv.'

And the deliberate attempt to 'escalate' by trying to police our fucking,cunting language. Such a cliche

And what have I denied exactly?
Again - are you saying that me and my colleagues are as bad as Couzens?

And fine - if you want to swear, then carry on. I just think if we are trying to have a reasonable debate on the subject which the originator posed, then dropping to offensive & abusive language towards me is not a polite way to reason that debate.

@VashtaNerada

I find your posts deeply irritating

You are not a police office how dare you speak as an authority because your husband is

@VashtaNerada

Yeah. Police have been raping and murdering people. They're SO underfunded, bless them. Let's give them more money to get more rapists with warrant cards on the street without them putting forward a single policy change that will mean the others like this in their ranks are identified, and fired with no pension, and I hope locked up.

Nope. Not happy to pay more money for more of these arseholes.

So, whats your solution here, exactly?
Members of the general public have also been raping & murdering - so its not solely aligned to police officers.

And the under-funding that we complain about - this is because we can't deliver a good enough service to our victims. Not enough resources, not enough radio batteries, not enough evidence bags, not enough vehicles etc etc - we complain because ultimately its the public who lose out.

So, you have never met me, don't know the incidents I have worked on, the victims I have helped & supported, the commendations I have received, the injuries I have suffered, the staff that I have helped, the convictions I have secured, the property I have returned, the survivors that have thanked me, the grieving relatives I have supported...

Yet you just assume that I am as bad as Couzens

So, what realistically do you want me to do - resign?

Show me where I said any of that, copper. Oh yeah, you can't because I didn't. I want you to realise that there is a massive problem in the police force, and try to do something positive about it. Not spout off on here about how overworked and amazing you are. At the very least try and be honest with yourself and acknowledge that there are very good and valid reasons why many women on here are angry, and are telling you that the system is rotten. Because honestly, trying to police our language and anger, and then tell us how great you are for doing your fucking job, really isn't changing my mind about you, or the force as an organization.

@alwayscrashinginthesamecar1

So, you have never met me, don't know the incidents I have worked on, the victims I have helped & supported, the commendations I have received, the injuries I have suffered, the staff that I have helped, the convictions I have secured, the property I have returned, the survivors that have thanked me, the grieving relatives I have supported...

Yet you just assume that I am as bad as Couzens

So, what realistically do you want me to do - resign?

Show me where I said any of that, copper. Oh yeah, you can't because I didn't. I want you to realise that there is a massive problem in the police force, and try to do something positive about it. Not spout off on here about how overworked and amazing you are. At the very least try and be honest with yourself and acknowledge that there are very good and valid reasons why many women on here are angry, and are telling you that the system is rotten. Because honestly, trying to police our language and anger, and then tell us how great you are for doing your fucking job, really isn't changing my mind about you, or the force as an organization.

Exactly.

This is exactly what men do when they come on here to offer their wisdom about male violence more generally. They make it abundantly clear that they are not interested in listening to women's voices, and then when they are challenged, or when they cannot control the narrative, they get the hump.

And no, we know that Not All Coppers Are Like That (NACALT). But there are far too many, there is clear evidence of a toxic misogynistic (and racist) culture, and nothing to suggest the supposed 'good eggs' are doing anything to change it.

Do better, @Felix125. At the moment, genuinely, all you are doing is reinforcing views that many of us already hold.

When people say (not on this thread) that the police aren't as bad as 'other places', namely the U.S I always think were it not that the Met / police aren't armed as a matter of course it would be just the same.

@lljkk

100k people on sex offenders registrar.

67 million ppl in UK

100k in 67 million is 1 in 670

Suppose there have been 300 sex offences in MET workforce in last 40 years , but workforce must be, I dunno, 300k different individuals over that period?

300/300k is 1 in 1000

Anyway, I agree it's guesswork. You can't say the occurrence of convicted sex offenders is higher among MET Officers than general population without some real numbers.

But it was in the news that 700+ iirc were reported in TWO years.

If you Google then the reporting around that and their totally inadequate response to the reports, has been in the news very recently.

Oops. Just googled.

'just' a couple of hundred in two years.

Fuck all action.

Apologies for error. It was from memory.

thedancingbear

A quote from a previous post of yours:

"....All this suggests that it's not a few bad apples, it's the whole barrel. I don't expect a cogent response from you. I'm expecting denial and aggression....

So, you are basically saying we are all the same, but now your saying..."And no, we know that Not All Coppers Are Like That"

So which one is it....?

And if you read my posts, I have agreed that it is totally wrong with what is happening in the Met. But I can only call things out which I see in front of me. And yes, I have called out unacceptable behaviour from cops over the years (including ones in higher ranks).

I refuse to 'step outside the law' when investigating crime & disorder despite complaints from my supervision & the public. If a member of the public stops me and wants me to 'stop search' a group of youths on their street because they look 'a bit dodgy' - I refuse as I don't have the grounds to do so. This is despite the objections from my supervision and the public - and why - because its the right thing for me to do.

The shift I work with now are dedicated & hard working at putting victims of crimes first and safeguarding them. The only messages we share on any group chat is who's turn is it to bring some milk in.

@StrychnineInTheSandwiches

Sadly there are a lot of corrupt cops about who aren't going to give two fucks about what your rights are and whether you object to being arrested by a male police officer.

I read this thread about a black teenage girl who was handcuffed for 'talking back'. I suspect it's a pretty common occurrence.

Sadly I think this is the case - particularly if you are a black woman but a police officer up to no good isn't going to take any notice of a white woman refusing to get into a car, either.

The covid rules exacerbated this situation as you could be arrested for more or less anything if the police considered it to be the law (they didn't think they needed to understand the law, only their interpretation of it, whether accurate or not, and in fact a police officer said on here during the first lockdown that she didn't have time to look at the law!!!!)

If you are in a car and you are flashed by police to stop and are in a quiet area, the advice is to go to a police station or petrol station where there will be other people around. In a busy town you can probably stop as there are people around.

However, I think in most cases if you were struggling with a police officer bystanders would simply consider that you were resisting arrest and turn a blind eye. Not sure what you can do, really!

@alwayscrashinginthesamecar1

So, you have never met me, don't know the incidents I have worked on, the victims I have helped & supported, the commendations I have received, the injuries I have suffered, the staff that I have helped, the convictions I have secured, the property I have returned, the survivors that have thanked me, the grieving relatives I have supported...

Yet you just assume that I am as bad as Couzens

So, what realistically do you want me to do - resign?

Show me where I said any of that, copper. Oh yeah, you can't because I didn't. I want you to realise that there is a massive problem in the police force, and try to do something positive about it. Not spout off on here about how overworked and amazing you are. At the very least try and be honest with yourself and acknowledge that there are very good and valid reasons why many women on here are angry, and are telling you that the system is rotten. Because honestly, trying to police our language and anger, and then tell us how great you are for doing your fucking job, really isn't changing my mind about you, or the force as an organization.

You said that your were annoyed that I was spouting NACALT and implied that I was 'part of the problem'

If you read the post above, I have called out 'wrongs' in my force when I see them happen and will continue to do so. I also refuse to get pulled into acting outside of the law despite protests from all around me.

I have acknowledged that there are very good and valid reasons why many women on here (and not on here) are angry. Many people in the police are angry. Many people in the police are honest & diligent and i don't therefore think that the entire police force is rotten to the core.

I was just reading about the tragic case of Suzanne Van Hagen - police were called multiple times to the flat she shared with her abusive partner. On one occasion they were rang after she'd been attacked by her abusive partner and they instead arrested her because they found weed belonging to her abuser (who was left to go free). This was all many years ago but demonstrates the core of policing.

Yes, horrendous

But, bare in mind that what we get called to and what we are presented with at the address can be two completely different things.

It happens quite a few times that we have ended up arresting the initial caller because it transpires that they have been the aggressor.

I have also been attacked by a victim whilst I have been arresting the perpetrator on numerous occasions too.

'If a member of the public stops me and wants me to 'stop search' a group of youths on their street because they look 'a bit dodgy'

You're met I think you said.

The way that you put that sounds like you're by yourself in uniform on patrol. Is that right?

@Felix125

Yes, horrendous

But, bare in mind that what we get called to and what we are presented with at the address can be two completely different things.

It happens quite a few times that we have ended up arresting the initial caller because it transpires that they have been the aggressor.

I have also been attacked by a victim whilst I have been arresting the perpetrator on numerous occasions too.

Ah, so it was the victim's fault.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I'm really interested in which area of London Felix works in. Not outing as so many officers in London.

Where they patrol on foot (alone?) not infrequently.

And it's not uncommon for people to go up and ask him to do a stop AND search on random other people about.

Fascinating.

thedancingbear

Ah, so it was the victim's fault.
Thanks for clearing that up.

And where have I said its the victim's fault?
We have to establish who the victim is first - or do we just assume that its the one who phoned first