If a police officer arrested you like Wayne Couzens?

[faithfulbird20]

Unfortunately it's taken losing Sarah to such a horrific crime to ask such a question. But what are we supposed to do. Someone arrests you off duty and you don't know whether u can trust them due to this case. What would you do? Ring 999 and say I'm being arrested by so and so but I don't know if he's on duty or if he's dodgy please can you log it somewhere. I just want to know if I'm definitely being taken to the police station I feel unsafe. There should be some sort of law. But what could you do? You've got no chance. No chance of safety. It's scary.

@Stopsnowing

Are men taking part in this conversation here or anywhere? Seems not to me. Why not? That is the problem.

They aren't. In fact from what I can gather the onus has again been put on women, r.e. flag down a bus if you're uncomfortable being stopped by a lone cop.

No-one would ever think an officer with a warrant card and the right spiel is going to do you harm.

No. This is wrong. Some people categorically KNOW that the police are intent on causing them harm using the right spiel and all the right tools. It coming as a shock for certain types of people doesn't mean some of us haven't known this most if not all of our lives.

No. This is wrong. Some people categorically KNOW that the police are intent on causing them harm using the right spiel and all the right tools. It coming as a shock for certain types of people doesn't mean some of us haven't known this most if not all of our lives

Maybe I have missed the other cases of police kidnapping, raping and murdering, using their warrant card, then.

@Quirrelsotherface I apologise. I spoke out of term. I do understand why this might create a societal shift. For lack of a better analogy it's a bit like spending years doing the research, doing the campaigns and organising around why drink driving is bad and though a few people agree with you the majority view it as relatively harmless behaviour despite some accidents along the way. Then a huge drink driving incident happens and everyone realises drink driving is bad.

Police Scotland have just released this for people stopped by lone officers

www.scotland.police.uk/what-s-happening/news/2021/october/lone-police-officers-to-offer-verification-check-to-members-of-the-public/

@Skyechasemarshalontheway

Police Scotland have just released this for people stopped by lone officers

www.scotland.police.uk/what-s-happening/news/2021/october/lone-police-officers-to-offer-verification-check-to-members-of-the-public/

WC was a ‘genuine’ police officer

He was off duty, this means if a officer is off duty or without a radio they would have to call 999 and they would send on duty officers to the location.

Once you are under arrest you don't have any rights to make a phone call there and then only when you are talking back to the station you are aloud one phone call..

@Skyechasemarshalontheway

Police Scotland have just released this for people stopped by lone officers

www.scotland.police.uk/what-s-happening/news/2021/october/lone-police-officers-to-offer-verification-check-to-members-of-the-public/

Fantastic news 🙌 provides extra reassurance. Swift action from Police Scotland.

The West Midland is full of unmarked police cars. Sometimes it feels like more than marked.

Its the standard thing of hoping its not you next, do what you can to avoid trouble but know if your card is marked, its marked.

Poor Sarah.

Maybe she just was feeling like she did wrong as she had visited her friend and felt guilty so compilied with evil man.
Also may the wine impaired her judgement and she became too trusting.
Just too dreadful.
RIP Sarah.
Wishing your dear family comfort.

*maybe

@JesusInTheCabbageVan

Genuine question - the women saying that they would refuse, peacefully or otherwise - would you get into a taxi with a make driver on your own?

The thing is, I would hesitate and be very concerned if a male off duty officer tried to arrest me, solely because of this case. Yet I'll continue happily jumping into taxis alone, which is silly on reflection.

But on the Uber app you have all their details , reg etc and can share the trip

Taxi drivers can and do attack women.

And remember John warboys. Over 100 victims. Black cab supposed to be utterly reliable safe.

When he was active, tfl or mayor's office were running an ad campaign to encourage people to get licensed mini cabs not unlicensed. I say people it was aimed at women.

This was the advert about 12 feet high in the tube station on my homeward commute. I stood in the same spot every day as I sometimes got a seat there. It was up for months. Iirc they advised to ring a line you had to pay for to get info on cabs... So it used this image to advertise a revenue raising thing.

Warboys was active don't forget.

In short. This constant stream of advice (rules) for women to follow does nothing except to make sure that when a woman or girl is attacked by a man, there's pretty much always something she 'did wrong'.

Why not general common sense info on safety for both men and women? Men who get really drunk are at risk too. Etc.

In the end the risk factor is being in the path of a predator who sees an opportunity. We can't tell which men these are. Once they have spotted a likely target then that's pretty much it. They are almost always stronger. Bigger. Faster. They have the element of surprise. Women are attacked by men they know far more than strangers. But stranger attacks that don't go as far as murder are hardly uncommon.

The problem is the attitude of society in general to sex offences against women and older girls. Rape myths still abound. All the don't do this do that. Really serve mainly to constantly remind women and girls that we must be constantly on our guard, imagining the worst scenario in loads of everyday situations. And reinforcing the very unhelpful idea across society. That men do these things what can you do. It's the responsibility of women and girls to follow 100000 rules. And if something happened and any one rule had been broken. What did she expect.

@Quirrelsotherface

No. This is wrong. Some people categorically KNOW that the police are intent on causing them harm using the right spiel and all the right tools. It coming as a shock for certain types of people doesn't mean some of us haven't known this most if not all of our lives

Maybe I have missed the other cases of police kidnapping, raping and murdering, using their warrant card, then.

Are you interested in other murders by police? And certainly police officers raping / coercing vulnerable victims of crime is a problem that has been in the news. Met had over 700 reports of sexual misconduct/ assault in two years. And in the news also male officers raping colleagues, filming in shower, sexualised verbal abuse + physical (holding scissors to her neck, throttling her so she couldn't breathe this was at work).

That's stuff from the recent news. I mean Google will have loads.

On murder.

Met.
Jean Charles menezes. Murdered. And then. Met LIED about his behaviour. Causing massive upset to his family. To try to cover up their enormous cock up.
Ian Tomlinson.
Murdered by met. Protest where loads of met officers had removed ID numbers and covered their faces. Tomlinson was not at the protest but roads were blocked due to it and he was trying to find a way out so he could get where he was going.
Yet again the police LIED. this time about his background mainly iirc. Behaviour prob as well. Again distress to family. Truth only came out when phone footage emerged.

...

There's more if you want to hear?
Or if it's not the exact same crime as couzens it's irrelevant...?

[quote thedancingbear]@Felix125 - yes, and your contribution has been to point out that Not All Coppers Are Like That (NACALT); that Couzens was just a bad apple; and that we should continue to trust you, whatever.

I'm still waiting for a response to my post of 10:02 yesterday to you. I'll repeat: if Couzens was a one-off, what do you say about:

-the police who covered up his exposing himself and wanking in drive-thrus, several times over a period of years

-the coppers who nicknamed him 'the Rapist' but did nothing to raise concerns

-the coppers he was exchanging racist, misogynistic and homophobic 'banter' with on WhatsApp

-your fucking scumbag colleagues who stood in the dock at Couzens' trial and gave character references for him

All this suggests that it's not a few bad apples, it's the whole barrel.

I don't expect a cogent response from you. I'm expecting denial and aggression.[/quote]
Yes, they are wrong for doing this - but I suggest that they are very much in the minority and they will probably be one and the same people.

How many people in the BBC covered up Jimmy Saville?
Does this mean I think everyone at the BBC is like that?

From where I am, our shift is a 50/50 mix of male & female officers. We all back each other up and no one does any of the above things you mentioned - so our force would be NACALT.

I can't 'call things out' if its not happening where I am.

If I were to visit the Met and see things as you describe - of course I would 'call it out'

I don't understand how you think I am as bad as Couzens when you have no knowledge of me and the work I have done. We are a close shift of people - most are young in service with young families. 20 years plus I have served - I have tutored new recruits (most of them on our shift come to me for help, so i would know of any underlying problems on the shift etc). I am also a first responder to incidents of rape and sexual assaults (rape trained officer) and have been for some time and never had any issues of survivors talking to me on their own and still don't.

We have been threatened with knives & other weapons, kicked, punched, bitten, spat at and had a whole load of abuse shouted about us and our families. We do this on a daily basis trying to keep the communities & victims safe. All of this under the umbrella of cuts & red tape introduced by the governments and continuing cuts to our budgets. I still have a wrist band with the collar numbers of Nicola Hughes & Fiona Bone as a reminder of the risks we take.

I don't understand why you would expect denial & aggression from me?

And please refrain from using abusive language in your posts

The met are rotten to the core. The list of their appalling behaviour is as long as your arm.

They are not widely trusted and they haven't been for decades. And with very good reason.

As a police officer yourself I imagine you know about it all.

This is really about the met. What is your view on them?

@Insert1x20p

I would 100% have complied, just like Sarah. Now I 100% wouldn't - i'd demand another officer attend, especially if plain clothed. I'm beyond sad that this had to happen for me to make that mental switch.

^^ this

This whole thing is to me a bit, it doesn't make sense.

In the met foot patrols are very unusual. And if they happen, always in pairs. Or at least I've not seen one alone for maybe 40 years.

Plain clothes when making an arrest. A whole load of other plain clothes and often a load of uniform appear as if from nowhere faster than you can say 'what's going on over there?'.

The likelihood of another police officer doing the same thing is incredibly low. The next shocking attack, if planned etc. Will have s different method. And then are we all to go oh right now I need to add all this to my list of women keep safe rules.

Once he decided she was his target. Realistically. That was that. Men can generally overpower us pretty easily. We don't know if she questioned, fought etc. No way would he let her go. She could well call police and then he's screwed.

Also.

It's the met. Asking questions will not be taken well. Quite the reverse. Running off and jumping on a bus? Well they're going to stop you obviously. Resist arrest? That's against the law. Get them to radio for you? Similar radio to friend of his. Easy.

Bottom line is. This regaining trust. Is for people with forces who aren't the met. Who haven't been trusted by masses of Londoners for decades.

And it's nothing about getting away from the same thing. It's been done. Next will be different even if police. It's about the police looking like they are doing something. It's drivel. In the end.

'And please refrain from using abusive language in your posts.'

Spoken like a true copper. Fuck off. What are you going to do, arrest me?

The implication Sarah could have done anything differently is ridiculous. 99.9% of people would do exactly as instructed by a policeman. I will give you an example of how complaint people are to police instruction. When I worked in a care home, one of our residents required urgent psychiatric care and was placed under section, requiring police escort to hospital. It was the middle of the night by the time the ambulance arrived. I accompanied the resident in the ambulance and the police car followed. Arrived at the hospital at about 3am. Once the resident was safe, my plan was to get a taxi back to the care home and go home (been on duty since 7am). Policeman said "I will give you a lift" I said thank you, no its fine I will get a taxi. Policeman INSISTED. Now I have never been arrested and before then never been in a police car. I definitely had not broken any law! But I got in the police car.
Of course, I was fine. The policeman was lovely. But that is how compliant most people are to police requests.

@alwayscrashinginthesamecar1

'And please refrain from using abusive language in your posts.'

Spoken like a true copper. Fuck off. What are you going to do, arrest me?

I'm just asking you and others politely to not swear at me in posts. I'm not using abusive language back at you and I don't like swearing. No - I'm not going to arrest your, summons you or report you - I'm just asking politely. Thank you.

@NiceGerbil

The met are rotten to the core. The list of their appalling behaviour is as long as your arm.

They are not widely trusted and they haven't been for decades. And with very good reason.

As a police officer yourself I imagine you know about it all.

This is really about the met. What is your view on them?

Like I said - its wrong.

But i suggest its still a low percentage compared to the total number of officers in the country. The ones I work with are dedicated and don't fall into the appalling categories listed on this thread.

I'm quite happy to 'call things out' but I have to see or know about it first before I can do so.

My mum was telling me that she refused to get out of her car years ago when a police officer pulled her over for a broken rear brake light. I would do too now, I wouldn't have thought twice about it before though. It's so shocking to me that women have to suspect everyone. No one is safe.