Should private schools be abolished?

[JoshLymanIsHotterThanSam]

Link.

I found this an interesting article. I did not realise that we now have one of the worst social mobility records in developed countries. I find this concerning. I am a fan of the grammar school system having been educated in one myself and having a DC who attends one. I have little experience of private schools though. If I'm honest if I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to use a private school, but that is down to the fact that I realise that it gives a leg up to the students attending, however I realise that this should not be the case.

Should we abolish private schools in the interest of fairness?

Triple science is difficult to timetable. Some comps offer it as an options choice, whilst others have compulsory triple in the top sets, teaching the content at a faster pace. It can be very difficult to secure appropriate timetable time for science. We are the poor relation in the core subjects, always secondary to Maths and English.

@KeflavikAirport

In countries that don’t have private schools, someone mentioned earlier. Do they still have residential schools?

My country has both. There are state weekly boarding schools for children who live in remote rural areas for instance.

Same here. (Italy)

@MasterGland,

Even in many private schools, the top sets do triple and the bottom sets do double.

Surely not everything that you learn at school should be about exams. Of my three one did triple even though he did arts subjects at A level but he was still interested in science subjects , one did double as he wanted to do three humanities but also discovered he was quite good at physics and the third who has complex Spld did General Science . The point is that they had the choice.

You could argue that it’s more important to fo triple if you are not doing science at A Level because that will be the last science that you do as part of your compulsory education.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@Bryonyshcmyony,

Why do you think double vs triple science IS a big deal?

Which aspects of the course that are missed out do you think are critical to good progression to A level?[/quote]
If it is no barrier to A level then why offer triple?

In our school yes top sets triple and bottom sets double BUT if a double set girl really wants to do triple she can.

I'd be interested to know if there is a difference between top grades at A'Level and double and triple.

Just had a really long chat with DS who feels doing the IB has provided him with massive life long advantages because he was forced to keep maths and a science going. As well as his Latin higher which he feels has a terrific impact but in very subtle ways. And that from an Historian doing a PhD.

Don't know about research but there is some snobbery attached to triple science. DD did it because Maths was and is her thing. DS didn't because he's an arty farty poet. Didn't stop him doing an English degree at Cambridge, but it did lead to a few eh? type looks from certain acquaintances when he was putting together GCSE options. There is a feeling in some quarters that you only do double science if you're a bit thick I think.

@shallIswim

Don't know about research but there is some snobbery attached to triple science. DD did it because Maths was and is her thing. DS didn't because he's an arty farty poet. Didn't stop him doing an English degree at Cambridge, but it did lead to a few eh? type looks from certain acquaintances when he was putting together GCSE options. There is a feeling in some quarters that you only do double science if you're a bit thick I think.

Well, presumably he didn't do science A levels? In which case double is absolutely fine. We've always been told triple science is better prep for A level. Double science doesn't preclude A level sciences but extra catch up work needed during the summer before 6th form if taking science A levels.

I'd be interested to know if there is a difference between top grades at A'Level and double and triple I am sure there will be if not just for the fact the brighter STEM kids will take triple if offered.

@YouJustDoYou

No one I personally know who went to private and had £50k plus paid out for their education ever ended up in a job worthy of that level of cost investment. One is a supermarket manager (perfectly achievable by non-privately educated people), one is a tree surgeon, one is in admin, one manages a bar, one works as a health and safety officer, and one sells insurance. Thousands upon thousands of pounds spent on their education, when a "normal" school would've served exactly the same purpose. Several of the parents have said how much they regreted it.

Well my husband earns a seven figure salary so you may not know anyone personally but I know quite a few who earn nearly seven figures.

It seems ridiculous to sit and moan about the waste of money when you could have moved them to state at any time! I know a few who moved from privates to state 6th form as they didn't think their dc was getting much out of the private school.

Private schools would dwindle if some of the purchased privileges they give disappear. So entry standards to universities would be raised for those who went to private school. After all if you get three A’s from eton, it hardly compares to getting three A’s at a comprehensive school in special measures. If Eton knocked 10 ucas points of your application it would probably eliminate intensively coached, highly confident mediocre pupils.

All private tutors to be registered and made to declare which pupils are being tutored. Those who are tutored have to declare the fact that they have been tutored and this can put their results in context when compared with less privileged people. If tutoring comes to light at a later date then the place at university would be withdrawn and the pupil/parent to be prosecuted for deception.

If your parents can afford £10k a year to put you through a private school, why should the state extend you a £9k a year loan to put you through university? Borrow it off your parents instead.

If a private school wants charitable status then they need to operate as a charity and have a SIGNIFICANT proportion of their intake (30%??) as scholarships.

Finally, eliminate the entry exam. If they genuinely add value to their pupils then they can add value at all abilities. Not just the ones who can pass an exam.

@Bryonyshcmyony,

'If it is no barrier to A level then why offer triple?'

I did not quite say that, did I? I said that double missed about 20% of the content and that pupils would have to catch up ahead of their A level course. Bright pupils can and have done that. Having said that, clearly teaching triple avoids pupils (even with help) having to teach themselves 20% of the course (and allows them to enjoy Reading Festival without worrying about work).

'In our school yes top sets triple and bottom sets double BUT if a double set girl really wants to do triple she can.'

My experience is that very few students want to do triple when the school has (wisely) advised them that they are better suited to double, but many parents are absolutely determined for their offspring to do triple, as it confers bragging rights, often at the cost of better grades.

What would happen to the buildings? The state would have to pay market rates if they were to take them over

I imagine AtTravellingLighter would like us all living in communes and wearing uniforms too.

FWIW we have paid our DC's uni fees - on the basis they will be in the bracket to repay the loans in spades.

When DH and I were 18 there were no loans but very few went to university. Society can't have it's cake and eat it.

@PostMenPatWithACat

I imagine AtTravellingLighter would like us all living in communes and wearing uniforms too.

FWIW we have paid our DC's uni fees - on the basis they will be in the bracket to repay the loans in spades.

When DH and I were 18 there were no loans but very few went to university. Society can't have it's cake and eat it.

Nope, I’m the least hippy person I know. An ex soldier and have voted at some time for almost all political parties. Broadly middle of the road politically, I’m of the opinion governments should be broadly centrist and we should live in a country that is broadly capitalist with a large social safety net.

What I dislike is the entrenched nature of the old school tie system. Boris I’m afraid illustrates the worst of what can happen. A man of no particular talent and energy who rose to the top on entrenched privilege. Despite the lying, infidelity and incompetence.

It’s a disgrace that we have had two old Etonians as prime minister in the last ten years. It’s a disgrace that our parliament is in the grip of the wealthy. There is no difference in intellectual ability across the social spectrum but those with the right school tie maintain an iron grip on our political system. How can someone like Jacob Rees Mogg represent the poorest in his constituency? What life experience can a deeply eccentric, very wealthy religious zealot bring to bear when facing a single mother who had had her benefits cut because of her chaotic lifestyle.

If private schools are the force for good they claim to be then there primary purpose should be the under privileged rather than the over privileged.

If private schools are the force for good they claim to be then there primary purpose should be the under privileged rather than the over privileged

Private schools are a perk some can afford. Like private healthcare and expensive nursing homes. I think they'll gradually price themselves out of the market however.

@Bryonyshcmyony

If private schools are the force for good they claim to be then there primary purpose should be the under privileged rather than the over privileged

Private schools are a perk some can afford. Like private healthcare and expensive nursing homes. I think they'll gradually price themselves out of the market however.

Only if we continue to have underinvestment in the state system.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@shallIswim,

Firstly, people get in a big tizzy about double award vs triple award science, mainly because they misunderstand what it is. If well taught, it is still a rigorous course in all three sciences, just without about 20% of the content.

Talented pupils can easily catch up on the missing content and proceed to do well at A levels.

As to why Science teaching is poor in the country, this could be a whole other thread. Fundamentally, if someone has a good Physics degree (say), why would they go into teaching rather than banking/tech/consultancy, a profession which would NEVER allow them to choose a private school for their children (unless they taught private..).

Apparently 15 % of state school Physics teachers have a Physics degree.

We undervalue and underpay teachers in the state sector (look at threads on here). We also undervalue STEM as a whole, especially politicians, of whom very few have STEM degrees.

I think Brexit could actually be good, here, The only way to survive is if we really emphasise education , and especially STEM education.[/quote]
Agree there’s plenty of students taking double science because that is all that is available and going on to do a level and higher science. It’s not worth getting worried about.
Can’t comment on physics particularly but teaching salaries compare very favourably with many scientific careers, lab based work in particular. A lot of scientists are quite practical people and enjoy applying the theory to practical situations. I think some other subjects are more natural partners to teaching in terms of skills and desire to teach! The further you study the more cross over between science subjects and whichever you study there will be elements of all. I’d have no problem with a physics teacher having a related degree in chemistry, engineering, another applied science etc

No

You can't equate every private school with Eton, which is actually pretty academically selective although not as much as some of the London day schools.

IME what some private schools deliver, as well as academic results, is self assurance and confidence. Not so much in an arrogant way but because their pupils know how to behave according to a certain social code. DH went to the local comp and then Oxford where he learnt some of it. I had to instil the rest. I fine it perplexing that my MIL, a deputy head, couldn't teach her children how to use a knife and fork and the innate confidence to be at ease in any social situation. How to work a room and to make small talk for example. They are pretty important life skills within the construct of social mobility.

How can someone like Jacob Rees Mogg represent the poorest in his constituency?

Travellinglighter how do you plan to stop his constituents from voting for him? There were other candidates in his constituency to choose from if the voters so wished.

Andante57

How can someone like Jacob Rees Mogg represent the poorest in his constituency“

My elderly parents live in his constituency and think he’s an appalling individual in many ways. Lots of their friends and their younger relatives think he’s “a real character”, others, seriously “an old fashioned gentleman” though and vote for him on those bases alone. Bizarre.

@MasterGland

Triple science is difficult to timetable. Some comps offer it as an options choice, whilst others have compulsory triple in the top sets, teaching the content at a faster pace. It can be very difficult to secure appropriate timetable time for science. We are the poor relation in the core subjects, always secondary to Maths and English.

DS was gutted he couldn't take all three sciences this year. S3 pupil. State secondary. All down to time tabling.

Yes they absolutely should be abolished and certainly the charitable status.