Should private schools be abolished?

[JoshLymanIsHotterThanSam]

Link.

I found this an interesting article. I did not realise that we now have one of the worst social mobility records in developed countries. I find this concerning. I am a fan of the grammar school system having been educated in one myself and having a DC who attends one. I have little experience of private schools though. If I'm honest if I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to use a private school, but that is down to the fact that I realise that it gives a leg up to the students attending, however I realise that this should not be the case.

Should we abolish private schools in the interest of fairness?

@PostMenPatWithACat

Interesting thread. DS's last annual fees in about 2014 were £19k. The state pays about £2.5k per child. It's hardly surprising there are quality differences.

Interestingly DS commented when he went to Uni, and had 4 hours of contact time "it makes school look like it was really good value for money ! He meant the £19k.

Not it isn’t, the minimum for a secondary school pupil is £5,150 per year. Where we live each pupil brings £6,800.

I once had a conversation with a mother in a lovely leafy primary playground where she told me that her principles would not allow her to send her dc to private schools. The look on her face when I said I was glad not to have such principles was memorable. She then tried to persuade me it was my duty to send my dc to the local comp to raise standards. She was equally askance when I said when it offered three separate sciences, a choice of MFL and Latin, I'd think about it.

It was interesting how many of the "principled" parents then those the local independents when their dc were 11. That really stuck in my craw.

She was equally askance when I said when it offered three separate sciences, a choice of MFL and Latin, I'd think about it.

I’d look pretty askance at someone who thought no state schools offered this. I did all of the above for GCSE at a “local comp”.

@PostMenPatWithACat
Why did it stick in your craw?

@PostMenPatWithACat

I once had a conversation with a mother in a lovely leafy primary playground where she told me that her principles would not allow her to send her dc to private schools. The look on her face when I said I was glad not to have such principles was memorable. She then tried to persuade me it was my duty to send my dc to the local comp to raise standards. She was equally askance when I said when it offered three separate sciences, a choice of MFL and Latin, I'd think about it.

It was interesting how many of the "principled" parents then those the local independents when their dc were 11. That really stuck in my craw.

All state secondary schools teach the three sciences, they also all teach mfl, its on the national curriculum, a good proportion teach Latin (mine did, complete waste of time).

Its actually easier to get two grade 5 GCSEs by sitting two sciences rather than taking combined science. Thats why some schools, such as my husbands boarding school generally entered students for higher chemistry and physics as it was easier to get what was then a grade C, compared to sitting combined science.

Errr my two did triple science and MFL at a comp. no Latin. But funnily enough it didn't impede their progress.
Funny what people think they know.

@shallIswim

Errr my two did triple science and MFL at a comp. no Latin. But funnily enough it didn't impede their progress. Funny what people think they know.

I think all you can know from this is that there is huge variation across comprehensive schools. And if you live in the catchment of one thst doesn't offer triple science you are stuffed.

But out local, better than the others, comp didn't. I also said choice of MFL. They could learn Spanish. No French, no German, no Mandarin. No Latin and three separate sciences were not taught: chemistry, physics, biology. They were at our local independent.

It stuck in my craw RickyOShay because when it came to their own children, their principles didn't apply but they saw fit to criticise when we moved our ds at the end of Year 3. Notably because in an outstanding state primary he was taught y was the horizontal and x the vertical axis. Children achieved due to tutoring.

@MsTSwift

My parents attend many dinner parties where the parents who paid for private bemoan what a waste of money it was as all of us now adults and there is no discernible difference in achievement or happiness in fact weirdly the state “children” now late 40s have done “better” career wise

I have never met anyone who has done this. It seems peculiar to posters on Mumsnet!

In our London Borough no state school offered triple science, Latin or a range of MFLs.

I’m a partial product of private schooling, attended a boarding school for just three years where I completed my GCSEs and A Levels. I loved it, small classes, inspiring teachers who actually gave a shit, lots of sports and outdoor pursuits etc. Left the place with a vague sense of direction and a bit of focus as to what I wanted do with my life. My parents pulled me out of the local school that had already massively let down my older sister and they did not want the same to happen to me and at considerable sacrifice they sent me to boarding school. My father was a plasterer from Limerick and ran a small successful building company, hardly 'old money' material

What people frequently forget is that there are private schools and there are private schools.

Even within the independent sector there is rampant snobbery at play. Just because you want to public school does not mean you are a member of 'the club'. The vast majority of private schools are unheard of institutions that offer a well behaved teaching environment with small classes with some nice to have bolt ons in terms of extra curricular activities that your average comp does not offer (Duke of Endinburgh etc). I can say with some confidence that my old school 'tie' opened zero doors for me or gave me fast track preferential access to plum job roles. It did gave me decent grades though and a bit of ambition

Most of the parents of pupils at these schools are middle class professional types who don't have money to burn and have made sacrifices to see their kids get a good academic start. For the most part the kids are 'normal' for want of another expression.

Then you get the likes of Charterhouse, Eton College, Harrow, Rugby, Shrewsbury, Westminster and Winchester, now these are elite and pupils here are just as likely to lump the afore mentioned lesser independent school in with the comps as scum to be mocked. They cost well over £30 grand a year and thats before all the additional costs are thrown in. Yes the facilities and quality of teaching are excellent, but that is only part of what you are paying for, the real 'value' in these schools comes from the connections pupils form that serve them throughout life, the stupendous sense of entitlement that is instilled in the pupils from day one and generally membership of club that is not grounded in reality.

Anyway, if public schools were banned the idea that Lord Wazcock Womble III and Lady Octavia Sloane are going to let their kids attend the local comp with the oiks is laughable. What you will see is that money pumped into private home tuition, property prices around grammar schools increasing even more, the establishing of 'free schools' that will curiously mirror the ethos of the shutdown public schools or kids just sent to boarding schools overseas.

We had a choice of Spanish or French. Couldn't do both. But a choice.
Few did MFL tho because there wasn't an awareness of the usefulness because low aspirations etc etc.
Just the children of a handful of pushy middle class MN mums like me.

What boroughs are we talking about that dont across the bird offer triple science? It's not a deal breaker tbh. Another local comp to us didn't offer it and has still produced future medical students.

Universities get it if they can verify that a student went to a
School which only offers a limited range. Thank god.

YouJustDoYou We are sending one of our DC private. I couldn't give a shiny shit what job he has longer term. I want him to finish school with a sense of value and confidence in himself. I feel like he would get overlooked in our local poorly performing comp. As a well behaved boy who muddles along he would never be on anyone's radar.

@shallIswim

Universities get it if they can verify that a student went to a School which only offers a limited range. Thank god.

But that’s not the point is it? It’s not about just ticking a box for university , it’s about every child having the opportunity to receive a good broad based science education. Other countries manage it why can’t we ?

@shallIswim,

Firstly, people get in a big tizzy about double award vs triple award science, mainly because they misunderstand what it is. If well taught, it is still a rigorous course in all three sciences, just without about 20% of the content.

Talented pupils can easily catch up on the missing content and proceed to do well at A levels.

As to why Science teaching is poor in the country, this could be a whole other thread. Fundamentally, if someone has a good Physics degree (say), why would they go into teaching rather than banking/tech/consultancy, a profession which would NEVER allow them to choose a private school for their children (unless they taught private..).

Apparently 15 % of state school Physics teachers have a Physics degree.

We undervalue and underpay teachers in the state sector (look at threads on here). We also undervalue STEM as a whole, especially politicians, of whom very few have STEM degrees.

I think Brexit could actually be good, here, The only way to survive is if we really emphasise education , and especially STEM education.

Someone always says this when lack of triple science at state is mentioned. Suddenly its just not a big deal

Just a quick question. In countries that don’t have private schools, someone mentioned earlier. Do they still have residential schools?
I know someone who teaches in private and a big chunk of the children are from the Far East, parents are in the military or work in hospitals during the week (I suppose the latter would have nannies instead). Where do they fit in.
I’m not a fan personally but I can see how they are necessary for many people.
We have a family member that is paying out for private school she can’t really afford. I think she should keep her cash and sent her son to one of several great schools he lives near.

@YouJustDoYou

No one I personally know who went to private and had £50k plus paid out for their education ever ended up in a job worthy of that level of cost investment. One is a supermarket manager (perfectly achievable by non-privately educated people), one is a tree surgeon, one is in admin, one manages a bar, one works as a health and safety officer, and one sells insurance. Thousands upon thousands of pounds spent on their education, when a "normal" school would've served exactly the same purpose. Several of the parents have said how much they regreted it.

I don’t send my DC to Private school as an investment If they end up in the jobs you describe I wouldn’t regret sending them

Interesting @hoppinggreen

DS is now 26. His circle of friends are doing as follows:

Articled at magic circle law firm
Pupillage
Architecture
Accountancy at one of the old big 4
Couple in investment banks
Couple in coding
Couple in Marketing/advertising

Just a quick question. In countries that don’t have private schools, someone mentioned earlier. Do they still have residential schools?

I think quite a few British public schools have opened satellite schools in Asian countries. My daughter worked part of her gap year at Marlborough Malaysia.

In countries that don’t have private schools, someone mentioned earlier. Do they still have residential schools?

My country has both. There are state weekly boarding schools for children who live in remote rural areas for instance.

The lack of choice in the state system is an issue for me. You 'express a preference', you don't make a choice. Really important things like the public transport access to the school and availability of wraparound don't even feature in the process. It's so old-fashioned.

As I said up the thread, we were looking at a situation 5 years ago where 4 yo DD could have ended up almost anywhere in a very large Borough due to lack of school places. If it had gone really wrong, one of us could have had to leave our jobs if we hadn't been able to secure suitable childcare in time.

I don't regret paying to avoid all the anxiety and stress. I did a spreadsheet. It was cheaper than moving, at least over a 5 year horizon. However, looks like we may have to pay for secondary as well to get adequate SEN support. If I'd had a crystal ball, maybe moving would have been best.

I know we are very lucky to have the option but it's definitely not about swank for me. I fundamentally distrust the government to provide school places sensibly and their SEN policy is rubbish.

I won't deny there are parents who treat private education as a form of conspicuous consumption but I can't really get exercised about people spending unnecessary money on education - not like they're doing anyone else's child out of education. Quite the reverse in fact.

@Bryonyshcmyony,

Why do you think double vs triple science IS a big deal?

Which aspects of the course that are missed out do you think are critical to good progression to A level?