Oh Prince Andrew is getting SUED by Virginia Robert's

[LaurieFairyCake]

That will be interesting

@StapMe

Which is not to say Virginia isn't telling the truth. But Jemma lied for sure. One poor bloke got 7 years.

@StapMe

Was Jemma Beale trafficked by a convicted paedophile, taken overseas (fact), introduced to wealthy powerful men (of which there is evidence) and previously awarded civil damages for some of her experiences at the hands of these criminals?

Because if not then I'm struggling to see the similarities between these cases?

Could you please explain why you're using a totally unrelated case to try and besmirch VRG? Or do you think Jemma Beale is representative of all women?

If you're simply trying to point out that on vanishingly rare occasions a tiny proportion of women make false accusations, then I'm not sure why as that has already been acknowledged on the thread and is of no relevance here unless you genuinely think there are similarities between these cases? If you do then have the guts to make that argument and stop making passive aggressive insinuations instead.

@StapMe

Now that I see I've had posts removed, can I please assure you that I believe wholeheartedly with the I Believe You campaign, and, despite it appearing so, none of my posts were to meant to defend anything that Andrew/Maxwell/Epstein have been accused of, nor was I trying to victim shame. I was caught up in the thought that there are two sides to every story, and that a person is innocent until proven guilty. And I'm still wondering about how they will prove to the satisfaction of the law who is lying.

@CarolineMumsnet

In light of @StapMe 's recent posts I think we can safely assume that this is the facetious response I thought it was when first posted.

She clearly gives zero shits about respectful discussion involving victims of sexual abuse.

"There is no doubt that Andrew is a sleaze, but I have no doubt that this is all about money for her."

I don't think so. I think she wants justice and I don't blame her. But it may well be that some of those supporting her will make money out of it too.

@StapMe

I wasn't aware I was " making passive aggressive insinuations". We are all entitled to an opinion, and mine is that men lie and women lie too.

On balance, based on the available information (as in public information we have, as none of us have the official evidence) do you genuinely believe that it's as likely Prince Andrew is telling the truth (that he never had sex with her) or that she is telling the truth (that he did and that she was trafficked by Epstein)?

On balance, do you believe both are equally likely? You aren't in court, your opinion isn't going to send anyone to prison, so you are able to express your opinion without worrying about a 'poor man' going to prison etc.

If this didn't happen why was PA such a mess in his interview.

@StapMe

Sami - if innocent until proven guilty is not relevant in real life, how do we deal with those accused of crime? Bang 'em all up anyway without looking into what they're supposed to have done? Let them go Scot free? Or shall we go back to trial by endurance?

You never did answer my earlier questions

You spend a lot of time on here goading and asking the same questions over and over - why don't you ever answer any?

Do you think Klebold and Harris, and Hamilton were innocent if their crimes? They weren't ever convicted...
what about Fred West or Harold Shipman?

@StapMe

I wasn't aware I was " making passive aggressive insinuations". We are all entitled to an opinion, and mine is that men lie and women lie too.

Very VERY, VERY RARELY! If you are going to use the 'but women lie too' excuse for not believing victims, that makes you a despicable, abhorrent, disgusting human being.

Why can't you just BELIEVE victims who come forward? You'd be an idiot to gamble on less than 1%.

@StapMe

I wasn't aware I was " making passive aggressive insinuations". We are all entitled to an opinion, and mine is that men lie and women lie too.

Well thanks for that groundbreakingly irrelevant insight.

"On balance, based on the available information (as in public information we have, as none of us have the official evidence) do you genuinely believe that it's as likely Prince Andrew is telling the truth (that he never had sex with her) or that she is telling the truth (that he did and that she was trafficked by Epstein)?

On balance, do you believe both are equally likely? You aren't in court, your opinion isn't going to send anyone to prison, so you are able to express your opinion without worrying about a 'poor man' going to prison etc."

On balance, since I am apparently facetious, a rape apologist, a victim shamer and all the rest of it I am not offering any more opinions. They clearly aren't welcome and I shall forthwith be keeping them to myself.

Given what victims have to go through, I believe them. And I am shocked that I am on MN with some of these views, I really am.

I'd expect it from the DM comments, but not here.

StapMe's attitude is the thing that breaks the hearts of victims and stops women from coming forward. People like StapMe are responsible for silencing victims of sexual abuse and rape.

I bet the FBI could make Andrew sweat...

I haven’t intentionally tried to minimise it at I just think we should wait for a court to decide the truth. Also they would have been twice her age not 3.

@StapMe

"On balance, based on the available information (as in public information we have, as none of us have the official evidence) do you genuinely believe that it's as likely Prince Andrew is telling the truth (that he never had sex with her) or that she is telling the truth (that he did and that she was trafficked by Epstein)?

On balance, do you believe both are equally likely? You aren't in court, your opinion isn't going to send anyone to prison, so you are able to express your opinion without worrying about a 'poor man' going to prison etc."

On balance, since I am apparently facetious, a rape apologist, a victim shamer and all the rest of it I am not offering any more opinions. They clearly aren't welcome and I shall forthwith be keeping them to myself.

So after everything you've said, when asked to clarify what you actually believe is most likely... you've chosen the sarcastic cop out route?

It was an opportunity for you to potentially say something sensible and reasoned like "on balance yes I think it's more likely she's telling the truth, but obviously we can't know 100%" but instead you've been sarcastic and snarky.

Nice one.

Also they would have been twice her age not 3

We don't know. Some of the men that used these girls were definitely 50 plus. There's a list of them out there with ages. In Andrew's case it was more than double her age.

@StapMe

"On balance, based on the available information (as in public information we have, as none of us have the official evidence) do you genuinely believe that it's as likely Prince Andrew is telling the truth (that he never had sex with her) or that she is telling the truth (that he did and that she was trafficked by Epstein)?

On balance, do you believe both are equally likely? You aren't in court, your opinion isn't going to send anyone to prison, so you are able to express your opinion without worrying about a 'poor man' going to prison etc."

On balance, since I am apparently facetious, a rape apologist, a victim shamer and all the rest of it I am not offering any more opinions. They clearly aren't welcome and I shall forthwith be keeping them to myself.

I don't think you are a 'rape apolgist'; nobody knows the truth about this issue except those involved. People can choose to believe one or the other, or a bit of both, but they still don't know for certain.

Ghislane Maxwell's trial will be interesting, maybe the truth will emerge then (unless, like her ex 'boyfriend', G Maxwell commits suicide before it gets that far).

@StapMe

"On balance, based on the available information (as in public information we have, as none of us have the official evidence) do you genuinely believe that it's as likely Prince Andrew is telling the truth (that he never had sex with her) or that she is telling the truth (that he did and that she was trafficked by Epstein)?

On balance, do you believe both are equally likely? You aren't in court, your opinion isn't going to send anyone to prison, so you are able to express your opinion without worrying about a 'poor man' going to prison etc."

On balance, since I am apparently facetious, a rape apologist, a victim shamer and all the rest of it I am not offering any more opinions. They clearly aren't welcome and I shall forthwith be keeping them to myself.

Shame you wouldn't just choose to be decent and compassionate, use respectful langue, and read the resources provided.

I haven’t intentionally tried to minimise it at I just think we should wait for a court to decide the truth

We aren't in court on here. You can have an opinion. And sorry I believe you have minimised what some of these young girls have gone through.

As I said upthread, sadly there will be posters who won't read links provided, who won't even begin to imagine what it's like to be vulnerable, poor, coerced.
They will just retreat from this thread with their unpleasant ideas intact.

"She was smiling in the picture"
Sums it up.

(unless, like her ex 'boyfriend', G Maxwell commits suicide before it gets that far)

That won't be happening. She is checked every 15 minutes and she has tried to have this practice overturned because of her disturbed sleep. It happened once, it won't happen again.

I know this isn’t a court that’s my point also this is about one case not about trafficking of all those poor girls, neither is it about Epstein and his awful crimes.

I don't think you are a 'rape apolgist'; nobody knows the truth about this issue except those involved

Of course you don't @Plumtree391
You also agreed with:

That doesn't mean she couldn't have been forced to have sex with Andrew or anyone else, but it does strongly suggest that she wanted to be where she was, with the people she was with, and wasn't being held against her will.

You also didn't answer any of my questions when I pointed out the faulty logic that post generated

Interesting how none of the 'two-sides' brigade have answered any questions, provided and sources or demonstrated any level of reasoned or informed discussion on this issue. It's just been a constant stream of gold-digging accusations and insinuations about VRG's character. Not a very robust basis on which to base your opinion

@Pixxie7

I haven’t intentionally tried to minimise it at I just think we should wait for a court to decide the truth. Also they would have been twice her age not 3.

Then why do you keep appearing on this thread? If you don't want to discuss it then don't. But you've no right to police other people's discussions.

She clearly gives zero shits about respectful discussion involving victims of sexual abuse
Of course she doesn't.
Someone who cares about the victims of sexual abuse wouldn't have routinely minimised the abuse, wouldn't have blamed the victims, wouldn't have engaged in ridiculous whataboutery, wouldn't have resorted to but who knows what happens behind closed doors, wouldn't be harping on about be fact that Epstein wasn't found guilty in a court of law so VR couldn't be a known victim, and that's the recent but women lie about rape.

Each time their obviously victim blaming and minimising is identified, they start again with the "but I'm not defending Andrew... I'm not victim blaming, but..."

On balance, since I am apparently facetious, a rape apologist, a victim shamer and all the rest of it I am not offering any more opinions. They clearly aren't welcome and I shall forthwith be keeping them to myself
That's probably for the best. Most decent people will continue to challenge victim blamers, those who repeatedly try to minimise and engage in whataboutery in order to cast doubt on victims of abuse. We see you.