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What is ‘deprivation’

257 replies

0None0 · 15/07/2021 10:29

It’s such a common term. I have my own idea what it means, but would like to hear other ideas. A lot of people and situations described as ‘deprived’ I would not consider to be deprived

OP posts:
0None0 · 16/07/2021 07:49

@JustLyra

I see school meals every day. Every day I am horrified afresh. They cost millions. They don’t belong anywhere except the bin. Abolish school catering completely is absolutely the way to go. I have no doubt. 95%of the vista goes on staffing and around 5% on the food. So once you have got rid of the staffing, and the kitchens and the machinery, schools have more space and 20x more money can be doesn’t on quality food

You’d save money. Undoubtedly.

Again though - what about the children from poor, neglectful, chaotic, or simply dysfunctional homes for whom school means are their main source of food?

If school meals hadn’t existed a) the school would have taken much longer to pick up on issues and b) I’d have starved.

I’m somewhat baffled that someone claiming to be a foster parent seems to have no sight of the importance of school meals (not to mention the ever growing importance of breakfast clubs).

The cost and the standard. They are fit for nothing but the bin. They are certainly not fit to be put into the bodies of children! And yes, you probably could save money by abolishing school meals altogether, and supplying low income families with a boiler and a fridge and electricity and fresh food deliveries each

But they would need a kitchen first, which returns me to housing being the main issue

OP posts:
Ifitquacks · 16/07/2021 07:52

Are you talking about school meals at all schools, or just the ones you teach/taught in?
Ours certainly aren’t haute cuisine but they’re decent quality and use fresh ingredients with plenty of veg. Better than the packed lunches that are often provided (sandwich, crisps, chocolate bar type stuff).

0None0 · 16/07/2021 07:54

@Sickoffamilydrama

Umm I don't believe you can have studied to masters level decarbonisation of vehicles.

City infrastructure and housing (to know if those car parks you are going to convert will work or just cause more deprivation).

& Childhood deprivation. All to masters level.

I've done a dissertation on one of those subjects to master level and even I've barely scratched the surface.

The masters was in decision making in energy policy. The research was specifically into car use and parking in London

Basically, the London housing crisis could be resolved within ( years if all the space wasted parking cars was rerationslised and available for accommodation.

OP posts:
Arsebucket · 16/07/2021 07:56

In answer to you asking me to write my essay on why giving people cookers and fridges (and paying for their electric is unworkable), I’d say that if you really had studied what you said you did, and worked in schools with deprived families the you would know yourself WHY this wouldn’t work.

I know that from having a level 5 health and social care qualification.

I am a specialist dementia carer, but I needed a break as it’s heartbreaking and hard. So for a few years, I worked as a school welfare officer (what people would call ‘the school nurse’).

Part of my job was helping families with all aspects of their health. Parents liked me and would ask me for advice which me and the safeguarding lead (the deputy head), would always do our best to help them with. Sign posting them to extra help, so don’t tell me there is no help to get a boiler if you own a home. I’ve helped a few families to do that.

I’ve also seen school dinners and eaten them most days with the children too. Some aren’t perfect, but in general the catering companies and the staff in schools do an great job.

Free school meals for ALL children in KS1 is a good thing.

For some children, they are a lifeline.

I am not middle classed or privileged in any sense.

Queenelsarules · 16/07/2021 08:09

OP as a teenager the reason I disengaged from education was most certainly not a choice. I was living with physical, sexual and psychological abuse at home, which meant I was home as little as possible, hence no homework. I was being bullied at school. University was my planned escape route, when I realised that was falling apart, my disengagement grew.

I know for a fact my circumstances were not unique.

0None0 · 16/07/2021 08:13

@Arsebucket

In answer to you asking me to write my essay on why giving people cookers and fridges (and paying for their electric is unworkable), I’d say that if you really had studied what you said you did, and worked in schools with deprived families the you would know yourself WHY this wouldn’t work.

I know that from having a level 5 health and social care qualification.

I am a specialist dementia carer, but I needed a break as it’s heartbreaking and hard. So for a few years, I worked as a school welfare officer (what people would call ‘the school nurse’).

Part of my job was helping families with all aspects of their health. Parents liked me and would ask me for advice which me and the safeguarding lead (the deputy head), would always do our best to help them with. Sign posting them to extra help, so don’t tell me there is no help to get a boiler if you own a home. I’ve helped a few families to do that.

I’ve also seen school dinners and eaten them most days with the children too. Some aren’t perfect, but in general the catering companies and the staff in schools do an great job.

Free school meals for ALL children in KS1 is a good thing.

For some children, they are a lifeline.

I am not middle classed or privileged in any sense.

Thanks for taking the time to reply in detail.

If you have information about where to apply fo help with a boiler, please let me have it,I’ll pass it on if it’s something that school families haven’t tried already

OP posts:
Arsebucket · 16/07/2021 08:19

@0None0 your local authority is the best place to start. Most have schemes to help certain people access grants for boiler replacements. The categories can be quite wide - things have certainly improved over the past few years.

SetPhasersTaeMalkie · 16/07/2021 08:28

Providing a kitchen will not help some families or children. Their lives are too chaotic. Money for food and electricity will be spent on other things, kitchen appliances will be sold on. r

Some parents do not have the skills to budget for or buy healthy food and the children will then be hungry.

For all of these reasons, school meals are a lifeline and provide the only hot food a child gets in one day. Sometimes it is their only meal.

Arsebucket · 16/07/2021 08:30

For an example, this is the list of qualifying benefits for a homeowner in a scheme in my area.

Arsebucket · 16/07/2021 08:33

Darn - photo won’t post.

But you can qualify for a grant or a heavily subsidised new boiler as a homeowner if you claim child benefit for example.

JustLyra · 16/07/2021 08:34

The cost and the standard. They are fit for nothing but the bin. They are certainly not fit to be put into the bodies of children! And yes, you probably could save money by abolishing school meals altogether, and supplying low income families with a boiler and a fridge and electricity and fresh food deliveries each

But they would need a kitchen first, which returns me to housing being the main issue

Standards vary, but it’s surprising that you have worked in so many places with such poor food given there are clear nutritional standards school meals have to hit.

Plus you’ve once again completely ignored the actual point that was made.

You’re a foster carer. Yet you seem unable to grasp that even with housing, fridges, electricity and fresh food (and how is all of that going to come from the school meals budget?) there are children who need to be fed. Hence the growing acknowledgment of the need for breakfast clubs and the likes.

Who feeds these children without school meals?

Puffalicious · 16/07/2021 11:21

I've read this full thread with increasing incredulity. How can anyone who has been an educator in deprived areas think like you do, OP? So many PPs have given their own, difficult stories, yet you continue to stick to the Tory lines of : it's a nanny state, more resilience needed.

There's no point in telling you multiple stories of my school in a very deprived area if Glasgow, or the horror I feel when reading pastoral notes. No point at all. Like most politicians, you're Teflon.

PS I'm on my phone and I can still spell, punctuate and form correct sentences.

Thelnebriati · 16/07/2021 11:50

OP, you gave your opinion on what is and what is not deprivation and talked about your own experiences. And what I heard was similar to the words of women who insist they are not experiencing domestic abuse, or domestic violence, or financial abuse, or coercive control.

I think your Overton window on 'what is deprivation' has moved, due to you being determined to not be a victim and not accept the label 'deprived'.

PaulGallico · 16/07/2021 12:29

OP - you really do need to learn to spell deprivation. Having taught in schools in deprived areas I recognise the importance of school meals - I am surprised you don't. Also I remember you posting on a thread where someone with a disabled son was in need of respite care - I remember the lack of understanding and sensitivity in your posts. That lack of understanding is also obvious from this thread.

NeverDropYourMoonCup · 16/07/2021 12:36

@Thelnebriati

OP, you gave your opinion on what is and what is not deprivation and talked about your own experiences. And what I heard was similar to the words of women who insist they are not experiencing domestic abuse, or domestic violence, or financial abuse, or coercive control.

I think your Overton window on 'what is deprivation' has moved, due to you being determined to not be a victim and not accept the label 'deprived'.

If she were talking about her experiences as a child, fair enough - but she was allegedly the adult responsible for the lack of hot water and heating. This makes it more akin to the words of abusers saying their victims are not experiencing abuse, violence, coercive control - or outright neglect.
pointythings · 16/07/2021 12:43

What really concerns me is that if OP is a teacher, she will be failing so many vulnerable children by not reporting concerns so that those families can be signposted to support. Someone with that attitude should not be in the classroom - and certainly should not be a foster parent.

BiBabbles · 16/07/2021 12:50

Seconding Arsebucket that many boiler and similar things for homeowners are now going through councils and also energy companies - the Energy Company Obligation at least until next March? or so can help with these for homeowners. The council ones should link up with the energy company ones though.

I know some schools pass on that type of information in parent newsletters along with other locally relevant information on these sorts of things.

Abolish school catering completely is absolutely the way to go. I have no doubt. 95%of the vista goes on staffing and around 5% on the food. So once you have got rid of the staffing, and the kitchens and the machinery, schools have more space and 20x more money can be doesn’t on quality food

A school in my area does cooking club with vulnerable children (not how its advertised to them) where they cook meals for 4 to be able to take home. This gives them skills and food, they get siblings involved. The school also provides all the food for general food tech lessons as well, does general baking clubs too. I've seen the food, it's quite good, and I know this school has previously gotten donations from supermarkets to enable meal programmes (as well as for uniform and stationery supplies).

This is a school that gives admissions priority to those eligible for pupil premium because that's the best measure they can put in, but works hard to include other vulnerable children too. The school catering team was beyond reproach during lockdowns in how they ensured the school's most vulnerable got fed in the breakfast club. They worked additional unpaid hours for months to keep that going, that's sadly not uncommon in some areas.

Schools cannot charge for anything related to the curriculum, including cookery ingredients. Including school trips.

Yes they can. They shouldn't exclude a child for their parents not paying, schools typically have a hardship fund or similar to cover in those cases, but they can charge as part of figuring out how to pay for things. Finances are a big barrier to schools providing all the things that people say schools should be doing, followed & related to space issues.

I was responding to the poster complaining that teachers didn’t ‘pick up’ on stuff, but I think it’s unrealistic to expect teachers to do that. We only know what students tell us.

No one expects teachers to be psychic, but even as someone who works in a school trust in an entirely "hands-off" role, I've had safeguarding training that discusses ways to be vigilant and how many disclosures aren't direct just for the very rare occasion I might be on school grounds with pupils.

A far larger issue is how often pupils are open about their situations, but aren't taken seriously because of how they've said something or the area they're in, or other reasons - it's why it's drilled in that we're not to make judgements, we report, because there are way too many stories - maybe chaff to you - where a child has made a disclosure that was ignored. I'm not the only one I know who had unreliable access to food, was open about it, and then had staff talk about how I must have an eating disorder that I was trying to hide in large part because of my age, sex, and the area I lived in, but also the attitude that because I was a teenager, then I was old enough to be responsible for getting food (so I did, by eating other's leftovers and doing shite I really shouldn't have had to for food and safe shelter) and any complaints I made were 'covering bad choices'.

And really, even where a teenager is making active bad choices, that doesn't mean the adults in their community should be trying to support them better. Your remarks on teenagers OP come across as washing your hands of them for being limited human being.

Teachers do far more than teach. Literally everyone who works in education - and most who don't - knows that.

0None0 · 16/07/2021 13:13

@Thelnebriati

OP, you gave your opinion on what is and what is not deprivation and talked about your own experiences. And what I heard was similar to the words of women who insist they are not experiencing domestic abuse, or domestic violence, or financial abuse, or coercive control.

I think your Overton window on 'what is deprivation' has moved, due to you being determined to not be a victim and not accept the label 'deprived'.

I think this is possible, which is one reason I started this thread
OP posts:
0None0 · 16/07/2021 13:14

@BiBabbles that cookery club sounds fantastic

OP posts:
caringcarer · 16/07/2021 13:17

Deprivation is to lose access to something you previously had access too.
Maternal deprivation to no longer have access to your mother. Educational deprivation to lose access to education. If you have never had access to something you cannot be deprived of it. Privation is to not have access to a necessary service.

pointythings · 16/07/2021 14:26

carincarer thank you for your incredibly pedantic useful contribution to the debate. Our government uses the word 'deprivation'. So now do we waste our energies in correcting their use of language, or would we rather they actually did something about the problem?

4PawsGood · 16/07/2021 14:29

@caringcarer

Deprivation is to lose access to something you previously had access too. Maternal deprivation to no longer have access to your mother. Educational deprivation to lose access to education. If you have never had access to something you cannot be deprived of it. Privation is to not have access to a necessary service.
Cambridge dictionary states “a situation in which you do not have things or conditions that are usually considered necessary for a pleasant life”
EBearhug · 16/07/2021 14:34

I don't think it matters greatly if it's privation or deprivation, when what it comes down to is people don't have all the things they need now, regardless of whether they have ever had them in the past or not.

Mickarooni · 16/07/2021 17:47

There are many schemes in Hertfordshire to support low income families and those who cannot afford heating or hot water. I find it very hard to believe it’s brushed over as one of those things. It’s unbelievable.

WrongWayApricot · 16/07/2021 19:57

You can't just build on parking spaces though, most of them in London are in front of houses already. You're just going to make a bunch of horridly narrow alleyways and give people tiny houses that have to be one room across and so close to the road they won't have any pavement?