Do you agree with this statement regarding pain and child birth

[user6767]

Chatting to a few friends tonight about child birth. One of them made a statement that I had never really thought about before but I can definitely see her argument.

She basically said it's wrong that women have to bear the pain of childbirth. When for nearly all other invasive/painful procedures we would be given pain relief as standard. She pointed out whilst we do have options like epidural these are not standard and in the UK in particular a 'natural birth' is seen as ideal. Also that she thinks if men had to give birth there would already be many more pain relief options available by now.

I thought it was a really interesting view point. Wondering what others think?

3 Electives means 3 lots of having 9 layers of stitching, cutting through muscle, organs, etc 3 times a needle put into your spine which has risks.
Many people wouldn't want to do that

The problem with childbirth is that neither option to get the baby out is particularly attractive. But it should be a choice. The aim should be to have a healthy mum and a healthy baby. Dogma about "being too posh to push" or "natural childbirth is better" or "your're irresponsible for wanting to give birth at home" should not come into it. Pregnant women are constantly treated like idiots and it needs to stop. Give them the guidance and then let them make their own minds up.

Quite frankly I don't know why anyone cares about how someone else gives birth. It's a process, what's important is getting a healthy baby at the end and suffering the least injury possible to the mother.

@RainbowSunset

Of course I agree. And we DO largely know why. Births complications and physiological traits that are likely to make childbirth easier/ more difficult, plus position or orientation of babies, underlying health conditions of baby or mother, etc etc.

Of course you are right - we do know lots. I would argue that historical research (naturally) focused on avoiding the worst outcomes. But now that we have improved mortality rates, can we start to find out why pain experiences are so different? Can we find out what makes some women experience less pain and use that information to improve the pain relief on offer. Discover totally new drugs or practices.

I'm petite and I have relatively big babies (8.5-9lbs). I have had 3 very quick (3-4 hours from first twinge) and almost painless births. No pain relief because I just didn't feel enough pain to want it. The pain I did feel was for a really short time. No tearing. After my third, I wasn't even swollen or sore afterwards. I couldn't believe it.

But why? I don't suffer from endometriosis. I don't have painful periods. I don't have a high pain threshold (can't handle a splinter in my finger). My mum and sister did not have a similar experience. I had a positive attitude, but so do plenty of women who experience extremely painful childbirth. I did a hypnobirth course before my first, but didn't do any affirmations or visualisations. I didn't have special music or listen to anything during labour. I did suffer from spd/pgp and did a lot of pilates to mitigate that.

I know how lucky I am. But many of the things I list above are true for women who had very different experiences to mine. And my point is that surely it's not 'luck'. Surely there are other factors that tell us why some women have an easier time.

I'm probably naive, but that's my argument.

To be clear, none of the above is said to take away from the awful experiences and barbaric practices described in this thread - both during labour and post-natal care. The medical professionals involved should be ashamed.

100% it’s luck. A baby’s position plays the biggest part in how easily they come out when you don’t need interventions.

Our bodies aren't "designed" to do it, we've evolved this way ffs.
To those who say their births didn't hurt - good for you!
From my own experience, I can say every birth is different, with differing levels of pain.
Of course pain relief should be accessible to everyone. If risks/benefits are explained in an antenatal appt then it is surely up to the woman to make an informed choice.

I feel exactly the same. No need for a person to be in that amount of pain for that long in this day and age. It’s brutal and we have the medical know how to make it better. Refusing to make it better just feels cruel. And some how women are made to feel virtuous for choosing their own suffering.

Fuck that. I had an epidural with my first and an ELCS for my second, with a massive dollop of all the drugs on top.

I've argued this too! The dentist gives you pain relief,
pain killers dished out by doctors like sweets... but women are encouraged to get on with it ...or are ignored until..oh dear it's too late

neah, OP has disappeared isn't speaking for me.
I gave birth 4x. Labour hurt, contractions hurt. There was lots of pain relief and none of it was as great.

Seeing DH deal with a dislocated shoulder for hours looked a lot worse than what I went thru. He reckoned the only pain relief option that helped was gas & air -- and that not a lot. He suffered more than I did.

Men are the much more vulnerable sex when it comes to risk of bad health. They are arguably the neglected and under-served group.

I chose not to have an epidural and had minimal intervention so was up and fine the Same day. All my friends who had epidurals had episiotomies or tears, stitches etc. I don't know if anecdotally that stacks up statistically or what the figures are like in places like France.

Rainbow great post and I agree there should be research into this! I have a hard time believing it's absolutely random. My births have both had similarities which seem to be playing out again with my third baby in terms of being back to back and the size. I've a strong suspicion my body is just shaped in a particular way that makes them grow like that. Maybe in years to come that will be something predictable, like how we can now notice signs that a woman is at risk of eclampsia for example which must have seemed just random in years gone by.

@roarfeckingroarr

I chose not to have an epidural and had minimal intervention so was up and fine the Same day. All my friends who had epidurals had episiotomies or tears, stitches etc. I don't know if anecdotally that stacks up statistically or what the figures are like in places like France.

I was up the same day with an epi, forceps injuries , and stitches too. All women, even those who had c-sections, are encouraged to be up and about as soon as the catheter is removed. It means nothing.

@roarfeckingroarr

I chose not to have an epidural and had minimal intervention so was up and fine the Same day. All my friends who had epidurals had episiotomies or tears, stitches etc. I don't know if anecdotally that stacks up statistically or what the figures are like in places like France.

You and I were just 'lucky', roarfeckingroarr. I am thankful for that; I did have a small episiotomy and stitches both times but that was OK, very neat.

I've known others who had an awful time, including one girl who didn't have an epidural to start off with but was in labour for simply ages, eventually resulting in a Caesarian because of the baby's heartbeat. She recovered but the entire experience was awful; just over three years later, she went through the same again. Neither occasion could have been anticipated.That is just one person out of several.

Therefore I believe pain relief should be readily available.

Queen Victoria was one of the first people to champion analgesia during labour, she found the whole thing quite dreadful - it's amazing that her sense of duty resulted in her having nine children.

At that time, chloroform started to be used but that wasn't particularly efficient. Later on something called 'twilight sleep' was invented and that could actually be dangerous though a lot of people had it and were OK.

Over the years people have tried to find effective and safe pain relief but it is a difficult one to get exactly right for both mother and her baby.

I do know doctor friends who decided the minute they knew they were pregnant, they were going to have everything possible that was going!

I've had 4 dc, all born prematurely with forceps and one episiotomy. No pain relief at all ever as I found out during first Labour that gas makes me sick as hell, not even a paracetamol offered. But the consultant at the last two (twins) birth did kindly shove an ibuprofen up my arse after....

I agree with others - I think there should be a much higher priority placed on maternal choice. Obviously if you’re 10cm dilated the epidural isn’t going to help, for example, but if you requested one at 4cm and got fobbed off, that’s awful and totally unnecessary.

I’m in an odd position because I had a very easy birth with DD, would’ve tried for a home birth with a subsequent baby… except now I’m expecting twins. So there’s much more medicalised language and less choice - as in, if I want to go off and have them in a yurt no one will stop me, but the standard approach is quite risk-averse - and I find I need to be more assertive. Epidurals are standard, for example, so I have to advocate quite hard not to have one (because I’m concerned about a cascade of interventions). And it’s, “Oh yes, you can have a natural birth, but it will be in an operating theatre, just in case” - again, just difficult to unpick that and objectively assess the risk.

@lljkk no, men have shorter lifespans for a number of reasons - being neglected by the medical profession isn't a major one. There are cultural issues with macho behaviour and not seeing the dr in time when they have symptoms etc that needs to be addressed in other ways one way could be for EVERYONE to have a mandatory annual health check.

I know people will exclaim "the cost!" But it actually long term would result in massive savings.

We need to get away from a reactive health approach towards a holistic and preventive one.

There are other physiological reasons why men don't live as long too.

When men DO go to the dr the vast majority of the time they are taken seriously and treated with respect and certainly not expected to tolerate the levels of pain women and children are.

I started a thread a few years back on just this subject there were some horrific stories inc one posted by a woman where she and her husband had the same condition, same symptoms and saw the same gp and received completely different responses and treatment - inc he was given strong painkillers and plenty of, she was sent off with no pain relief at all.

Children suffer as a result of medical misogyny as they are most often represented at the drs etc by women.

Another example on that thread iirc was where a child was first taken to dr by mum, dr basically did nothing. Taken to dr again by dad - totally different response. As a couple they decided that in future dad would always take kids to dr - which shouldn't be necessary

Sorry meant to say - one area where men are treated similarly to women by the medical profession is if they have a mh dx.

There are major issues with gp practices and other hcps not taking the mentally ill seriously when they present with other health issues.

I have a mh dx and I've even had visible symptoms (rashes, swollen sprained wrist etc) dismissed as being "all in my mind"

I always wanted a natural birth.
First DD stillborn at full term while I was having a massive placental abruption at term.
That was intense pain.
I was in so much pain that even morphine didn’t make a difference.
So much pain that I couldn’t feel the internal examination (they initially tried to induce me because they thought my daughter had “just” died, as opposed to me bleeding severely internally (I lost 4 litres of blood)).
I’d begged for a c-section when they told me she was dead, because of the pain I was in. They refused.
That was at about 8pm.
I was in unbelievable agony (could barely breathe) until around 5am when they burst into my room (where I was essentially dying), panic ensued, blood bags being squeezed into me at high pressure. Rushed to theatre, took almost 4 hours to stabilise me.
They intubated me whilst I was awake.
Told me I’d probably die.
My birth plan was to have zero intervention.
I was told afterwards (after not dying) that I have an extremely high pain threshold.
I knew that anyway.
Childbirth and women’s apprehension is so perversely undermined.
If I could go back in time…

100% it’s luck. A baby’s position plays the biggest part in how easily they come out when you don’t need interventions.

I'm not really referring to how easily they come out - though that is one part of the overall experience, obviously. I'm not even getting to the question of interventions because they are often essential and life-saving (not always), or at least in line with best practices to improve infant mortality rates (not always).

I'm talking about the pain experience of labour. Of contractions. Of dilating the cervix. Why is that so much more painful for some than others? And why does duration of spontaneous labour vary so greatly? Even for the same woman across different pregnancies.

Even with synthetic hormones for induction, some suffer horrendous pain with induced contractions while others don't. Some dilate quickly and others don't.

Is it actually less pain, or just how pain receptors behave? Is it solely baby's position? Is it shape of uterus? Is it hip flexibility? Is it a particular hormone balance? Is it another genetic factor? Is it biological markers laid down by previous painful experiences?

All medical practices evolve with research (look at the vaccine tech we've seen that wouldn't have been possible a generation ago). I want to see my daughters have more choices for better birth experiences.

One problem with the arbitrary 4cm limit thing is that sometimes it doesn't really work like that!

With my last baby I was stuck at 1cm for about 15 hours (I had the same with my first but much longer) and then I had an epidural put in - not in UK so no 4cm minimum - I then dilated to 6cm in an hour and 10cm over the next hour. There probably wouldn't have been time for an epidural if I'd waited until 4cm. In fact, I believe it was the relief and hope that the pain relief would soon kick in that allowed me to relax enough for that dilation to happen.

I'm pregnant in the US where epidurals are the norm. I do find it weird talking to friends in the UK who had trouble accessing them. I think it's a cultural thing in different hospitals where it sounds like some are reticent to give one, push it back and then it's too late. Others seem to accommodate the request easily.

FWIW, I think the opposite often happens in the US where some hospitals prefer women to have epidurals because it makes them easier to manage. Often gas and air isn't available in US hospitals (it's seen as a new thing, hilariously!) so the options are generally epidural or opioids.

With epidurals there comes inevitably more intervention and possibly more risk to the baby as a result.

I agree 100%

If a women wishes for pain relief, this should be respected and every effort made to ensure they receive what they need/want

If a women refuses any pain relief then that's fine too, just crack on, and actually would mean the anaesthetist will in slightly less demand!

@rainbowsunset I think those are very interesting questions.

Based on reading too much on mumsnet what I've heard from others, I should have had really difficult births. Both babies were back to back until the last minute, both had very large heads (98th centile) and I have quite a small frame. In reality, my first was born in six hours and my second in three, and I had no intervention with either (and no epidural).

The only thing I did which could have gone in my favour was that I was very active in both pregnancies, but I'm not naive enough to think that was enough to guarantee straightforward births. I know lots of people are very active and have incredibly difficult births. So I'm not sure what the magic formula is, but I'd love to know - or is it really just pure luck?

I think the whole "frame size" thing is a bit of a misnomer. Your pelvis size doesn't really correlate with anything, height, weight, foot size or anything like that although people have wondered. Anecdotally I've heard lots of stories of smaller women who have had big babies without a problem.

I do seem to remember something about pelvis shape, this is apparently correlated to ethnicity, but I can't remember exactly what was said now. I'm curious, I'll see if I can find it again!

Childbirth hurt me, but nothing a bit of gas and air couldn't help. I also felt in control and could listen to my body. If I'd have been given an epidural then who knows how it would have ended up!