Do you agree with this statement regarding pain and child birth

[user6767]

Chatting to a few friends tonight about child birth. One of them made a statement that I had never really thought about before but I can definitely see her argument.

She basically said it's wrong that women have to bear the pain of childbirth. When for nearly all other invasive/painful procedures we would be given pain relief as standard. She pointed out whilst we do have options like epidural these are not standard and in the UK in particular a 'natural birth' is seen as ideal. Also that she thinks if men had to give birth there would already be many more pain relief options available by now.

I thought it was a really interesting view point. Wondering what others think?

Not read the full thread but completely agree that women should be able to have pain relief if they want it (and a c-section if they want it too).

A few weeks ago there was a discussion about c-section on demand and someone mentioned France and said that in the UK we still have a very puritanical view of childbirth and think women are sinners for sec (regardless of marriage!) so they should suffer for it (especially after giving birth when the aftercare is reputedly much better in France).

When I had my son I had a difficult birth but I was given all the pain relief I needed. I can't imagine going through that experience without, and it should not happen.

sinner for having SEX, not sec!

to get up and care for a highly dependent newborn directly after.

That is crazy. It is a peculiarity of our nuclear family model, in lots of parts of the world you would be expected to stay in bed for 40 days and be waited on hand and foot.

They may not be ‘forced’ but there’s definitely societal pressure to have them in France.

As others have said childbirth is neither invasive nor a procedure. And a lot of the reason we find it so painful is because it's fucking scary, we're doing it in hospitals which are not oxytocin promoting environments, and there are loads of invasive things added to it like monitoring, drips and so on. I don't think eliminating these things would make it pain free of course, but it does seem to be much more manageable anecdotally when these kinds of things are taken into account and women have better emotional support. That sounds hippy dippy but it's really not - a huge proportion of labour progress is down to hormones and neurotransmitters which are affected by things like stress vs relaxation and feelings of safety. Other mammals have this too.

On the flip side interventions can be brilliant when there is a situation they are needed and this includes pain relief.

There are invasive procedures which are a part of childbirth. For example induction patients I always think should have earlier access to an epidural if they want it. Oxytocin drip shouldn't be given without offered epidural.

The UK is pretty good in general I think with the main problem being arbitrary guidelines about how many centimetres you have to be to be "allowed" an epidural, plus not enough anaesthetists so by the time you're allowed one you have to wait sometimes hours and then it's too late. But the approach of midwife led care as default for low risk pregnancy, even though continuity of care would be better, and the prevalence of midwife led units with a less hospital kind of feel but the doctors and theatre and good drugs just down the corridor is a perfect set up, imo.

If you need intervention then pain relief should be discussed as part of that. And the options should be easily accessible even for a straightforward birth if you want them. But I don't think medicating childbirth is the way to go as a first approach.

I gave birth in a country where there's no way a nurse would be allowed to put in an epidural (I see this is also the case in the UK!) and I had to fill in the same consent sheet with risk of headache etc. I really don't think this is a problem only in the UK!

Studies show that women feeling informed, in control and in discussion about their birth is the most important factor as to how they feel about it afterwards. Not the number of interventions or the amount of pain relief they had. But if they felt that their wishes and voice were taken into account. That's what we should be aiming for.

Not in my experience (two babies born in France). It’s not like something people discuss over coffee.

@KeflavikAirport did you have epidurals? Most of my French friends and I discuss childbirth. I think because it is so common it feels like the only way you can do it there. Just my experience.

I agree with your friend 100%.
We are so discriminated against as a sex. It's awful.
I had pain free births (ish) both times due to interventions and an elective c section 2nd time but my god did I come in for a lot of stick for this. And had to really fight my corner.
If my kids decide not to have kids I'll be secretly pleased in many ways.

This is nothing new op it's been said for decades and it's also been uncovered years ago and on here in the child birth section that tyere is a core of evangelical people including midwives and some nct practitioners that having a candle and some essential oils will help a huge baby with a head to large for your hips pass safely out.

I agree. I always said you wouldn't go to the dentist and have a tooth removed without pain relief, why would you give birth without it.

I did for one birth, not the other. I agree that it's pretty much expected you'll have one, but I found the medical staff open to whatever the mother wanted.

I haven’t given birth so I can’t comment on it but I dispute that male health problems necessarily get better care and pain relief. My DP has been experiencing testicular pain since January, keeps trying to get it sorted but keeps being fobbed off by doctors saying ‘sometimes this happens’ and hasn’t been given any pain relief even though it affects his sleep, concentration etc. Meanwhile I’m seeing an excellent specialist for my PCOS who is basically giving me anything I want. I think basically if it’s something easy to diagnose then provision is good but if not then they are useless.

I think your friend is correct, if men gave birth there would be more pain relief options and there would be no stigma around wanting them.

Is natural birth seen as ideal? my boys are 14 and 11,now I was induced both tines, but I was offered every form of pain relief going

I agree, it should be a choice. The midwife actively discouraged me from having an epidural with my induction. A doctor came to talk to me and sorted it, so I did have one but shouldn’t have had to battle for it. If people don’t want one of course that their choice but we shouldn’t be telling people that can’t have one or even discouraging it. Share the risks and respect people’s choices.

There’s not a single abdominal operation that a man would have where he’d be given, reluctantly, only paracetamol afterwards.

I worked with a woman who went into labour early with twins. She ended up with a tear from the first one then needed a c-section for the second. Two paracetamol was her post op pain relief, and even then it took over an hour from when she asked to when it arrived

When I had my last DC my only pain relief post section was two paracetamol. The anaesthetist had actually written me up for diclofenac but the ward staff looking after me decided I didn't need it. The day after my section I was in so much pain I couldn't get out of bed and ended up needing morphine just to get from the bed to the chair. The nurse on duty was so pissed off at me because it meant I couldn't go home that day, she told me I could stay one more night and then if I wanted to stay longer I would need to arrange to go elsewhere (i.e., contact other postnatal units myself to see if any would take me). I told her I'd love to go home but was in a lot more pain than I expected and based on my previous two sections which were uncomfortable afterwards but no where near as bad as that. Her response was "you've had a section, of course you're going to be in pain". I was discharged the following day, was told I couldn't have the diclofenac I'd been written up for and hadn't had yet as it wasn't allowed to be sent home with me, and was given a blister pack of four paracetamol "to tide you over until you or your husband can go to the shop for a box of your own". I had an awful night of increasing pain that, shockingly, the paracetamol wasn't touching and rang my GP in tears first thing the next morning. My GP was horrified, wrote me up for Naproxen, I threw up the first dose and the second dose and was really sleepy so she wrote me up for diclofenac instead. I carried on getting increasing pain and on day five post-delivery I was clearly unwell. I was sleepy, freezing cold, I felt bloated, I couldn't eat or drink as the thought of even putting water in my mouth disgusted me, and I felt all wrong. I rang the postnatal ward who told me I had probably caught a bug from my children and to get some rest. I started vomiting and shivering so rang them again, they said I had probably food poisoning and to drink some water. Twelve hours later, despite not eating or drinking for 24hrs, I was still vomiting (brown bile by that point) and despite a vest, a t-shirt, fleece pyjamas, a dressing gown, a fleece blanket, and a duvet I was shivering and complaining of being cold. I have never felt so cold in my life. When I started chatting shite to people who weren't there DH rang the out of hours doctor who came straight out to the house based on the symptoms he described, she took a cursory examination and rang an ambulance because I had sepsis. If I'd been listened to at the "I'm in more pain than I expected" stage then it would never had progressed that far. I had a piece of placenta still inside me, my womb hadn't contracted down at all and was still level with the bottom of my ribs, and I was so unwell by then that they couldn't even go in to remove it as the infection risk was too high. They gave me antibiotics and support measures and then had to wait and see if I responded before they could do anything about removing it, thankfully I did respond but then the retained piece came away via a secondary PPH which set me back again. I was in hospital for a week on IV antibiotics and then a further ten days of two different oral antibiotics to take at home.

By comparison when I had my gallbladder out last year I was given painkillers before going to theatre so that they'd be in my system ahead of time, when I woke up and mumbled "it hurts" they were shooting morphine into my IV before I'd even finished saying it and I was given a shot glass of Oramorph to top me off. On the ward they checked on me regularly, I was wheelchaired to the loo because they said it wasn't a good idea to walk, and they brought regular painkillers to keep me topped off as they said I shouldn't let them wear off until I was feeling better. I was given a bag to take home containing liquid morphine, paracetamol, ibuprofen, and diclofenac. I had open access to rhe ward for a week after and when I rang the next day to say one of my wounds had opened they told me to come straight up, dressed it, shot it with some local anaesthetic, and got me to have a little rest on the bed before going home. I had three follow up phone calls over the first week where they rang me to check everything was okay. When one of my wounds got mildly infected I had antibiotics within thirty minutes of me saying "I think this one isn't healing right". It was worlds away from my previous experience of surgery and really highlighted the differences between general medicine/surgery and women's medicine/surgery.

One of the biggest improvements that could be made to maternity care is to individualise it. Instead of setting up a standard, actually listen to each woman about what she wants from her care, what type of birth would be best for her own circumstances, what pain relief she wants, what postnatal care she expects, and then follow through with it.b

No I don't agree, the natural birth process at each stage triggered different hormones etc these are all signals happening within the body. Masking these can cause complications and linger labour.

Obviously that's not applied to difficulties and where interventions are needed for the health of the mum and baby.

Tbh I always think it could go either way with male childbirth! Either it would be a macho thing to do it without pain relief, with competitive "my labour was 10 hours" "mine was 20!" or it would go totally the other way with loads of drugs etc :o

But then again if men gave birth they would be the ones at a biological disadvantage so this conversation would be reversed.

I wonder on the other hand if men had never got involved in childbirth and it had always been the realm of women supporting women what it would look like today. A lot of the older or more primitive examples of childbirth support, although terrible in the case of people needing intervention that was/is not available, I think there are parts we have lost touch with which could still be valuable and useful today.

It’s always puzzled me why pain in childbirth is seen as amazing.

I’ve heard so many midwives telling women how brave they were, how “good” they were not to have any pain relief.

I have friends who wear it like a badge of honour that they did it all themselves with no pain relief.

I have never, ever understood it. why would you do that to yourself, for what purpose? Would you have a tooth extracted with no pain relief?

For context, I’ve had three elective sections.

@Arsebucket

It’s always puzzled me why pain in childbirth is seen as amazing.

I’ve heard so many midwives telling women how brave they were, how “good” they were not to have any pain relief.

I have friends who wear it like a badge of honour that they did it all themselves with no pain relief.

I have never, ever understood it. why would you do that to yourself, for what purpose? Would you have a tooth extracted with no pain relief?

For context, I’ve had three elective sections.

3 Electives means 3 lots of having 9 layers of stitching, cutting through muscle, organs, etc

3 times a needle put into your spine which has risks.

Many people wouldn't want to do that!

It shouldn't have any morality attached to it either way. Pain relief is just a tool, like forceps, like induction. Sometimes they are needed, sometimes they're not.

I think birth is something to be proud of however you get through it! It's not "better" if you get through it by chanting and breathing than it is if you get through it by opting for (or needing!) surgery or pain relief. It's bloody heroic either way!

It's about informing women of the risks and the options and helping her to make a guided choice.

I was really frustrated during my first birth where I was told during an incredibly long labour that I wouldn't be able to cope and should have an epidural. I didn't want an epidural but succumbed as I bowed the the pressure from that midwife.

Of course I agree. And we DO largely know why. Births complications and physiological traits that are likely to make childbirth easier/ more difficult, plus position or orientation of babies, underlying health conditions of baby or mother, etc etc.

Of course you are right - we do know lots. I would argue that historical research (naturally) focused on avoiding the worst outcomes. But now that we have improved mortality rates, can we start to find out why pain experiences are so different? Can we find out what makes some women experience less pain and use that information to improve the pain relief on offer. Discover totally new drugs or practices.

I'm petite and I have relatively big babies (8.5-9lbs). I have had 3 very quick (3-4 hours from first twinge) and almost painless births. No pain relief because I just didn't feel enough pain to want it. The pain I did feel was for a really short time. No tearing. After my third, I wasn't even swollen or sore afterwards. I couldn't believe it.

But why? I don't suffer from endometriosis. I don't have painful periods. I don't have a high pain threshold (can't handle a splinter in my finger). My mum and sister did not have a similar experience. I had a positive attitude, but so do plenty of women who experience extremely painful childbirth. I did a hypnobirth course before my first, but didn't do any affirmations or visualisations. I didn't have special music or listen to anything during labour. I did suffer from spd/pgp and did a lot of pilates to mitigate that.

I know how lucky I am. But many of the things I list above are true for women who had very different experiences to mine. And my point is that surely it's not 'luck'. Surely there are other factors that tell us why some women have an easier time.

I'm probably naive, but that's my argument.

To be clear, none of the above is said to take away from the awful experiences and barbaric practices described in this thread - both during labour and post-natal care. The medical professionals involved should be ashamed.

@PattyPan I think it's unfair for you to dismiss not only many other women's experiences but also loads of research - worldwide - that shows that in the majority of cases women get lesser medical support than men. I'm not saying your dp isn't suffering and hasn't been treated appropriately but that it's one instance and there are many many others that prove otherwise. That you even HAVE a specialist is also very unusual, the main problem women in the Uk have re Gynae issues is getting a referral to a specialist. In addition to medical misogyny another reason is because of how gps are funded - they're not properly part of the nhs they're actually independent self employed contractors - making referrals to specialists impacts their profits, there are also issues with guidance on how and when referrals are made in that gps are discouraged from referring to specialists so nhs costs are kept down. A false economy as I'm sure you can understand insofar as your dp has likely visited his gp on numerous occasions and it's impacting his concentration which will impact his ability to be productive in any way which all costs the country too. It's short sighted and cruel

@Bearfrills I hope you - and indeed others with similar experiences - made a formal complaint? That's disgusting what happened to you

I agree that there should be more options for pain relief, but I do also think that the pain is the body’s way of guiding us and when we dull that pain the signals that make labour progress can be missed.

I had an awful 24 hour labour with DS1, using tens machine and gas and air, and by the end it wasn’t the pain that got me, but the exhaustion.

The next two were much quicker and home births so much more relaxing. I didn’t get a chance to have gas and air with either of them, so were both done with no pain relief and while it was of course painful, it wasn’t unbearable. Straight after DS2 I said “that wasn’t so bad, I could do that again!” And the midwife told me not to get any ideas

For me, the thing that would have made it better first time around was more caring staff, a less “hospital-ly” environment and a bit more understanding that as a first time mum I was terrified. I’m sure that slowed things down for me, as it was just so stressful. Being in my own home, with just one midwife (the 2nd - with the gas and air - didn’t get there in time!) was just so much more pleasant.