Why are surgeons such arrogant arseholes

[KirtonandKim]

*not all of them

Seasoned manager of over 25 years. Brought in to manage a team of surgeons who have ridiculous retention of staff (they can’t). Managers, operational, PAs and juniors - they cannot retain anyone.

2 months in and I can see why. They are without a doubt the most arrogant group of people I’ve ever had the misfortune of trying to manage. I’ve managed “bad” teams before - but nothing like this. And it’s just shrugged and accepted as “what surgeons are like”.

They know they are untouchable - they know they have us over a barrel and we can’t sack them. But the constant moaning and bitching and whining and utter lack of any insight into their own behaviour is fucking flabbergasting

God I can’t face work tomorrow

I am a vascular surgeon ( and trained at an excellent centre mentioned earlier) , about to be a consultant .
Things have changed hugely in the last 5 years.
I currently work in a department where there are 10 really nice consultants. We have been out twice in the last 3 weeks as a team ( with nurses and allied health professionals), bought two of our team managers lovely gifts for special birthdays.
We work with the elderly ( kindness is a requirement for the job) . Training is tough but it is hugely stressful to teach someone to do a major operation where the patient can die or have a stroke . Standards have to be high. My trainers are pretty kind and put themselves out for me.
The problem is that the stakes are so high that sometimes we have to be sharp elbowed - not accepting a delay getting someone to theatre, or absence of a key piece of kit .... our patients need us to fight their corner.
From the other side, conditions need to be good to allow us the headspace to make good decisions, not be exhausted or have chronic neck/ back pain. I understand the meeting about the chairs!

I had surgery on my hand a good few years ago. The surgeon seemed a very severe and scary bloke. I then met him again after he had retired. He obviously didn't know me but I remembered him. He was absolutely lovely. So maybe it's the stress of the job.

They aren't all like that! I think you have just come across a particularly arrogant group. A lot depends on the department head, if that person is more gentle, he or she will take the lead and that attitude filters down through the ranks.

My brother in law is a surgeon and you couldn't meet a more kindly and well mannered man, there are and have been other doctors in the family and they appreciate their staff.

A happy department is one that works well together.

Staff have to confident in their jobs and performance and able to communicate well on all levels.

There is always a big turnover of staff in hospital departments, especially younger staff, that is quite usual; they move away or see a chance of promotion/better job elsewhere.

@Loshad I'm guessing because to earn over a 100 000 per year you need to have been a consultant for over 14 years. Becoming a consultant surgeon takes many more years than becoming a physican typically and posts are often fiercely competitive involving an MSc etc and post CCT fellowships and you are therefore older, having worked longer in the NHS before reaching Consultant level. Annual leave is 32 days plus 2 days for long service (over 7 years as a consultant) plus 8 days bank holidays. I've never used my full study leave allowance in the 15 plus years I've been a consultant.

@darasda - I don't disagree but your first sentence did make me chuckle. I'm thrilled you are a real man . I like surgeons (and physicians) to behave like gentlemen if they are men and ladies if they are women.

@KirtonandKim whatever hospital you’re working at can my husband have a job there please ? My husband worked throughout the pandemic in full PPE he came home mentally and physically exhausted his face swollen from the PPE . He volunteered to turn patients in ICU with covid and became very unwell himself . He’s spent years training, missing family birthdays, Christmas etc . He’s had sleepless nights worrying about his patients and yes even surgeons worry about the operations they have to do . The pay they get is good but if you break down into the actual hours they work it’s hardly footballers money . Maybe you should spend a month doing their job and then comment !

Not sure OP could it be something to do with being born into unfathomably supreme privilege

During lockdown many of these important men were working from home a lot. One mumsnetter could hear him on video calls. She was so shocked he was a monster she said . Many MN agreed that the insight they now had into their partners professional life was an eye opener. These were kind loving family men in the main. In work mode pretty awful

@olympicsrock

Was it oxford? Mr Derby is a legend for saving my Uncles life 🥰

Absolutely this. If I had to have an operation I would want a super confident surgeon, not one full of self doubt. I appreciate its hard for you to work with/manage them but it's a job where a certain type of personality is needed

This this and this in fucking spades. I’m content, if my child needed surgery to survive, then I would want a confident surgeon in charge. If some see this as arrogant because they know they are great, then I don’t care. I don’t care as long as he prolongs my baby’s life…..

I have a Dc with a significant congenital abnormality who has been able to live an almost typical life due to lifelong care, expertise and attention from a consultant surgeon who has a fearsome reputation for demanding particular infection-proof aftercare and nursing.

I don’t care what their personality is like. Their training, subsequent experience, skill and hard work has transformed my Dc’s life for the better.

I am grateful for the entire team.

Exactly the reason I’d never take a job in surgery! Always stick with the medics and AHPs. Can be whiny and difficult but waaay less arrogant. Anaesthetists mostly seem lovely and super hard working (and more about the patient / person).
You need to preserve yourself and think your next steps through - fire with fire isn’t doing you or your patients any good. I agree, if your trust isn’t willing to take them on (few are) then I wouldn’t bother. I’ve seen doctors get away with horrible things in trusts where there is no leadership and accountability. Have a direct, off record chat with your DOHR and go from there.

@Loshad he doesn’t I just quoted what’s the OP said about surgeons getting £100 K for doing nothing

One I know is fine if everything is just so, but I have joked before that his patients are lucky they're unconscious for most of their interaction with him...

Ortho surgeons tend to be from the medics rugby team from what I remember!

@darasda

Don’t get me wrong. With the exception of T&O the majority of the surgeons I’ve worked with have been fantastic. Some of them were so kind to me as a student and talked me through what they were doing even though I was an AH student. I’ve learnt so much from the kindness of them.

YANBU. I knew of a top vascular surgeon. Arrogant, humourless and full of himself. Well-known and respected and at the top of his field, but terrible interpersonal skills. He developed a blood phobia and could no longer operate, so he was forced to take over as GP in a wee Cornish fishing village. Last I heard he’d married a local school teacher and had a baby boy. The baby was kidnapped by the local pharmacist too, a bit of a loon who’d been messing around with her med supplies. The baby was unharmed thank goodness and I’m not sure how they’re getting on now.

@Cloverleaf20

My husband is a surgeon and yes he’s arrogant at how well he can do his operations, exactly the sort of surgeon I would want to operate on me . He gets pay £100,000 a year for 25 years of training, long hours and on calls . Your post is very rude !

Sorry but it’s a choice he made and he should not be allowed to be an arsehole for it. To be brilliant, you don’t have to be an arsehole. A lot of people on this thread have seen surgeons who were great to work with so it is surely possible and should be the norm.

@darasda

Behold, the man is here, to prove the OP’s point.

“Jumped up nurse” eh?

DH is a surgeon, but he’s not a twat.

I'm surprised at the Orthopaedic reg complaining up thread. When I scrubbed (NHS), we were taught to anticipate every instrument, suture etc and I'd always aim to get through each operation without the surgeon asking for a single instrument. Maybe there's a big turnover of staff in orthopaedic theatres?

Agree with this. When I scrubbed I made it my mission to have everything ready and be ready for any eventuality, good scrub nurses shouldn’t need to be asked for things constantly, same with good circulating staff and anaesthetic nurses. When I trained i’d do a full list in whatever speciality I was in, four hips or ten cataracts or three lap choles, whatever it was i’d put my name down for them all. However now I see brand new nurses standing back and having to be asked to scrub for a case, then it’s all excuses “oh i’ve never scrubbed for them before” “oh I haven’t done this procedure for months”

Just get to the table and learn! Read up on the procedure, double scrub, stand and watch instead of sitting talking about the weekend. Infuriates me. I left theatre for a few years due to family and now i’ve gone back, albeit to a new speciality (and in only anaesthetics rather than scrub and anaesthetics) i’ve seen such a change in the nurses coming through the door now. I’m only qualified 12 years too, not like i’m 30 years in and reminiscing on the training of days gone by. I can see why it’s annoying standing at the table having to ask for every single thing as I see it daily and it boils my piss

“The problem is that the stakes are so high that sometimes we have to be sharp elbowed - not accepting a delay getting someone to theatre, or absence of a key piece of kit .... our patients need us to fight their corner.
From the other side, conditions need to be good to allow us the headspace to make good decisions, not be exhausted or have chronic neck/ back pain. I understand the meeting about the chairs!”

The problem is that the stakes are so high that sometimes we have to be sharp elbowed - not accepting a delay getting someone to theatre, or absence of a key piece of kit .... our patients need us to fight their corner.
From the other side, conditions need to be good to allow us the headspace to make good decisions, not be exhausted or have chronic neck/ back pain. I understand the meeting about the chairs!

That makes sense. I think it’s a big responsibility but also a privilege to work in a high stakes environment where you actually can justify being a bit sharp-elbowed from time to time

Congratulations on your promotion

I was stuck in the lift once with my dads surgeon holding court to his oily little underling - telling him how brilliant he as, and how many papers he had. He was slick and smooth and shiny like some kind of slithery Uber banker. I defeated him.
That said, he did an ace job on my dad.

I'm amazed the amount of posters who seem to think it's ok to be a twat because if you are confident/brilliant etc.

Darasda, calling someone a 'jumped up nurse' puts you in the twat category...